9/11 conspiracy theories, Do they hold any water?

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Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories, Do they hold any water?

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Sep 12, 2011 3:48 pm

Lanval wrote: "... ignorance of the size of a stade caused problems both to the Arabs and to Christopher Columbus."
source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth

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Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories, Do they hold any water?

Post by steve74baywin » Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:18 pm

Lanval wrote:
steve74baywin wrote:For years many believed the Earth was flat. This is due to the political and religious leaders of the time using many means to keep the masses believing a false hood they propagated.
Wrong.


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You may be right. It was more for his "Heliocentrism" that he was persecuted for.
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Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories, Do they hold any water?

Post by RSorak 71Westy » Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:13 pm

why these three buildings are the very first steel skyscrapers on record to collapse and why the WTC7, without a plane hitting it or anything, still managed to collapse so thoroughly?

The 2 WTC towers were unique in their design. The 1st buildings ever with the supports just on the outside and in a center core. The center cores were compromised by the heat and failed. Down come the buildings.

For WTC7 I have no problem accepting the Pop Mech explanation and feel no need to repeat it.

None of these fires were fought, I think most every other high rise fire had firemen fighting it. Thus the duration and intensity of the fires was not sufficient to cause collapse.

Again I challenge anyone to please provide 1 FACT to support the conspiracy theory. Not speculation or doubt a FACT.
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Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories, Do they hold any water?

Post by glasseye » Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:38 pm

RSorak 71Westy wrote: Again I challenge anyone to please provide 1 FACT to support the conspiracy theory. Not speculation or doubt a FACT.
It's unscientific and illogical to invent scenarios. What is logical and scientific is to ask questions and draw conclusions based on observations.

There are far too many questions that are not answered by the hastily-prepared "official" story.

And that's my story and I'm sticking to it. :pirate:
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Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories, Do they hold any water?

Post by RSorak 71Westy » Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:32 am

There are far too many questions that are not answered by the hastily-prepared "official" story.
Only in your opinion, in my mind the official story fits the facts just fine.

When I was younger, I too wondered if all the conspiracy theories that abound in the world about all kinds of subjects were true. Now that I'm older and wiser and understand how bad humans are at keeping secrets, my belief in any large conspiracies has dropped to nil.
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Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories, Do they hold any water?

Post by steve74baywin » Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:16 am

RSorak 71Westy wrote:
There are far too many questions that are not answered by the hastily-prepared "official" story.
Only in your opinion, in my mind the official story fits the facts just fine.
You could discuss the specifics.

RSorak 71Westy wrote: When I was younger, I too wondered if all the conspiracy theories that abound in the world about all kinds of subjects were true. Now that I'm older and wiser and understand how bad humans are at keeping secrets, my belief in any large conspiracies has dropped to nil.
When I was younger I barely knew of or heard of any conspiracy theories. I took things on face value, now I scrutinize and use logic and reason.
Humans actually can keep quite a few secrets. There are no absolutes. There are people who tell some secrets, there are also times when people take secrets to the grave. I bet there are many people that cheat on their loved ones and never tell. Sometimes the consequences of telling is what prohibits them from telling. Telling an older person that if they speak they won't be hurt, but instead their wife, sons, daughters, and grandchildren will be would probably work for most people, even a man on his death bed would think twice about telling. There are tons of people who work in the CIA and convert, and must of us do not know this.
How old are you RSorak 71Westy?

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Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories, Do they hold any water?

Post by RSorak 71Westy » Tue Sep 13, 2011 10:52 am

I'm gonna turn 48 in 8 days.

Yes their are many who's job requires that they keep secrets. And wanting to keep the paychecks coming keeps them quiet. But how about the many after they retire, who spill the beans? My point in this argument is that any large conspiracy that is SENSATIONAL and involves a large number of participants to pull off, will NOT stay secret for long.
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Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories, Do they hold any water?

Post by dingo » Tue Sep 13, 2011 12:44 pm

no matter how bad humans are at keeping secrets, it still pales in comparison to their gullibility...the masses will swallow all kinds of garbage...for various reasons mostly related to maintaining their level of comfort i.e. most people would rather remain in the dark than open up pandoras box and risk possible unfamiliarity and unknowns
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Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories, Do they hold any water?

Post by ruckman101 » Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:24 am

Why muck around in the conspiracies?
What about it?
No one talks about that it.

My chalice is overflowing with predisposed insight. And 45 more mindbendingly predisposed more minutes of insight to come. I'm on a tear.

http://www.democracynow.org/


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Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories, Do they hold any water?

Post by ruckman101 » Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:51 am

It's too late. I can't continue. I will revisit. Slather, foam, my Hero's response to "Obama's Job Speech".

Feel free to skip ahead and spoil it for me.


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Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories, Do they hold any water?

Post by steve74baywin » Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:06 am

RSorak 71Westy wrote:I'm gonna turn 48 in 8 days.

Yes their are many who's job requires that they keep secrets. And wanting to keep the paychecks coming keeps them quiet. But how about the many after they retire, who spill the beans? My point in this argument is that any large conspiracy that is SENSATIONAL and involves a large number of participants to pull off, will NOT stay secret for long.
I am 47, about 6 months away from 48.

The way I see that things like this could happen is this. Not everyone knows, but very few know. Many did a certain task that somehow aids in something like this happening, but they don't know anything.
There are many layers, many compartments, there is the "need to know" aspect, most are working towards their specific goal or job with no idea of the big picture.
Some clearances bind you to not tell forever, not just until you no longer hold the job.
Those who know something of real importance probable realize their life or their families could be ruined if they tell.

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Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories, Do they hold any water?

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:19 pm

Secrets?

Contaminating hospital patients in Rochester NY and San Francisco CA in the early 50's to see how they would react to radiation.

Using radioactive munitions in Desert Storm

It takes generations, not just a decade, for some secrets to come out.

Again, I am not on-board with some nutcase conspiracy brigade.

I have some serious questions that have not been answered. Building 7, I am just not convinced that it was so materially compromised that it had to drop so beautifully. Not when a similar sized building in Madrid Spain was engulfed in flames for over 18 hours, nobody could figure out how to put that one out either.

So RSorak71Westy, how does a 47 story building, damaged along one facade, fall perfectly downward through its own greatest path of resistance at close to the speed of gravity?

When it comes to WTC "conspiracies", I do not spew reasons or fanciful series of coincidences, but you can be sure that people have been put to death in this country by some real law & order declarers of certitude prosecutors who utilize as much nutcase happenstance as the aforementioned WTC conspirators.

Steve74baywin already posted this link, it is measured and thorough ... and the Popular Mechanics article's engineers shows up on one of his charts)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQgVCj7q49o

What do you think of it, as an official rebuttal to the Popular Mechanics article?
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Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories, Do they hold any water?

Post by Lanval » Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:47 pm

Amskeptic wrote:Secrets?

Contaminating hospital patients in Rochester NY and San Francisco CA in the early 50's to see how they would react to radiation.

Using radioactive munitions in Desert Storm

It takes generations, not just a decade, for some secrets to come out.

Again, I am not on-board with some nutcase conspiracy brigade.

I have some serious questions that have not been answered. Building 7, I am just not convinced that it was so materially compromised that it had to drop so beautifully. Not when a similar sized building in Madrid Spain was engulfed in flames for over 18 hours, nobody could figure out how to put that one out either.

So RSorak71Westy, how does a 47 story building, damaged along one facade, fall perfectly downward through its own greatest path of resistance at close to the speed of gravity?

When it comes to WTC "conspiracies", I do not spew reasons or fanciful series of coincidences, but you can be sure that people have been put to death in this country by some real law & order declarers of certitude prosecutors who utilize as much nutcase happenstance as the aforementioned WTC conspirators.

Steve74baywin already posted this link, it is measured and thorough ... and the Popular Mechanics article's engineers shows up on one of his charts)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQgVCj7q49o

What do you think of it, as an official rebuttal to the Popular Mechanics article?
Colin
Colin,

Allow me to quote the Wiki on this:

"After the North Tower collapsed, some firefighters entered 7 World Trade Center to search the building. They attempted to extinguish small pockets of fire, but low water pressure hindered their efforts.[32] Fires burned into the afternoon on the 11th and 12th floors of 7 World Trade Center, the flames visible on the east side of the building.[33][34] During the afternoon, fire was also seen on floors 6–10, 13–14, 19–22, and 29–30.[29] In particular, the fires on floors 7 through 9 and 11 through 13 continued to burn out of control during the afternoon.[35] At approximately 2:00 pm, firefighters noticed a bulge in the southwest corner of 7 World Trade Center between the 10th and 13th floors, a sign that the building was unstable and might collapse.[36] During the afternoon, firefighters also heard creaking sounds coming from the building.[37] Around 3:30 pm FDNY Chief Daniel Nigro decided to halt rescue operations, surface removal, and searches along the surface of the debris near 7 World Trade Center and evacuate the area due to concerns for the safety of personnel.[38] At 5:20:33 pm EDT on September 11, 2001, 7 World Trade Center started to collapse, with the crumble of the east mechanical penthouse, while at 5:21:10 pm EDT the entire building collapsed completely.[1][39] There were no casualties associated with the collapse."

There are verifiable fire experts who were on-scene at the time. Do you really believe:

1. That a complete, controlled demolition setup for the entire building could have been in place without being observed by the firemen in the building?
2. That those same firemen would keep quiet about a possible conspiracy/inside job, after watching hundreds of their friends and co-workers die in the same conspiracy/inside job?

The collapse was an expected outcome ~ the building was evacuated, which shows they knew full well that the building was under extreme duress. I doubt there is any threat that would keep the firemen quiet about such a conspiracy ~ too much anger, and too much lost in the heat of the moment. They would have talked if they'd seen anything worth noting.

There is no conspiracy, except the conspiracy in the minds of those who wish that there were, somewhere, answers to all that happened, happens, or will happen. Remember ~ in an infinite universe, there is no possibility, only certainty. It will happen somewhere, sometime. It must.

Mike

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Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories, Do they hold any water?

Post by glasseye » Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:21 pm

Lanval wrote: There is no conspiracy, except the conspiracy in the minds of those who wish that there were, ...
Mike
It must be nice to be so certain.



How about Pearl Harbour? Done any reading about who knew what and when they knew it?
Or the Gulf of Tonkin incident?
Or the Reichstag fire?
Or the JFK shooting?

"Incidents"? Or "Conspiracies"?

History is chock full of false flag "incidents"
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Re: 9/11 conspiracy theories, Do they hold any water?

Post by Lanval » Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:31 pm

glasseye wrote:
Lanval wrote: There is no conspiracy, except the conspiracy in the minds of those who wish that there were, ...
Mike
It must be nice to be so certain.



How about Pearl Harbour? Done any reading about who knew what and when they knew it?
Lanval wrote:Yes, but clearly you haven't. No serious historian argues that the US knew the attack was coming. Show me one who does. By the way, it's spelled Pearl Harbor. Even in Canada.
Or the Gulf of Tonkin incident?
Lanval wrote:Is there a dearth of simple reading around here? From the wikipedia site (before you ask, yes I've read much more detailed discussions of the event)

"In 2005, an internal National Security Agency historical study was declassified; it concluded[7] that the Maddox had engaged the North Vietnamese Navy on August 2, but that there may not have been any North Vietnamese Naval vessels present during the incident of August 4. The report stated:

It is not simply that there is a different story as to what happened; it is that no attack happened that night. [...] In truth, Hanoi's navy was engaged in nothing that night but the salvage of two of the boats damaged on August 2.[8]"

Can you tell the difference between conspiracy and confusion?

Or the Reichstag fire?
Lanval wrote:Hmmm.... lessee. I lived in Germany for over a year, speak German fluently, and have read various pieces on the history of the rise of the 3rd Reich in German, by German authors.

Du wirdst echt verruckt wenn dir Hitler und Bush zusammen; der erster war unheimlich bose; der zweiter nicht so bose, und nicht so hinterhaltig.

By the way, I've read The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich cover to cover; have you?
Or the JFK shooting?
Lanval wrote:Um, Oliver Stone's movie is not history.
"Incidents"? Or "Conspiracies"?

History is chock full of false flag "incidents"
Explain to me this: Why am I not allowed to be certain, yet somehow you are? Why are you so certain these are all "conspiracies"? The only that even comes close is the Reichstag; that was a conspiracy. However; comparing Bush and Cheney (however much I hate those bastards) to Hitler and the Nazis is, by definition, a failure. Ever heard of Godwin's Law? No? Go look it up. There is no evidence, NONE, that suggests the Bush admin, or even people within the admin, brought about any kind of conspiracy. There is only circumstantial "evidence" that isn't even evidence, and the flimsy belief of those who wish they understood some big secret, because it would help justify their unbalanced world view.

Could I be wrong? Sure I could. All I ask is evidence; saying, "Oh, that building could NEVER have fallen that way except for a controlled demolition is STUPID. How can anyone account for every possibility in that scenario? How can we know exactly what would happen in the circumstances given?

Which leads us back to this? Why are you (or anyone) so certain it's a conspiracy, yet anyone who disagrees with you is a low-grade moron? Give us evidence when you make your argument. Explain WHY the building could ONLY collapse that way, and NO OTHER WAY.

Ever heard of Occam's Razor? He was a 13th century cleric who said: "Numquam ponenda est pluralitas sine necessitate". You ought to try it.

Mike

Mike

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