Impeachment Proceedings

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Impeachment Proceedings

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:41 am

Is it warranted at this point?
Do you see an actual line in the sand, law<>lawless?
Colin
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Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,845 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 112,885 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,899 miles

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Re: Impeachment Proceedings

Post by whc03grady » Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:00 pm

Is it warranted? Has been for some time. Is it what we should do? Nope. There's no surer a way to a Trump victory in 2020 than impeachment.

This dude nails it.
Frank Bruni in the NYT wrote:President Trump deserves to be impeached. But the prospect terrifies me, and it should terrify you, too.

That’s not to say that it’s the wrong move. Arguably, it’s the only move, at least in terms of fidelity to the Constitution and to basic decency. From the moment that Trump stepped into the office of the presidency, he has degraded it — with words that a president has no business speaking (or tweeting); with ceaseless lies; with infantile and often unhinged behavior; with raging conflicts of interest; with managerial ineptitude; with a rapacious ego that’s never sated; and with foreign dealings that compromise America’s values, independence and interests. How can principled lawmakers not tell him, in the most emphatic manner available, that enough is enough?

But there’s no way to say what happens now that a formal impeachment inquiry is being opened. None. You’re going to hear a lot in coming days and weeks about Bill Clinton, but using the example of his impeachment in late 1998 is a bit ridiculous: He was a very different president accused of very different offenses at a very different time. Besides which, political analysts who do cite it don’t agree on the lessons. So a pundit making confident predictions about the political fallout from the impeachment of Trump is a pundit far out on a slender limb.

Any scenario is possible, including one in which impeachment redounds to Trump’s benefit and increases the chances of his re-election, because he paints himself a martyr, eludes conviction in the Senate, frames that as exoneration and watches his fans mobilize and turn out as never before. And a second Trump term wouldn’t just be the sadly suboptimal byproduct of a noble stand; it would be disastrous. Morally as well as practically, limiting this unfit, amoral, unsteady man’s time in the presidency takes precedence over any small cluster of sentences written centuries ago.

But while an impeachment’s impact on November 2020 is unknowable, its effect on us as a nation is almost certain. A dangerously polarized and often viciously partisan country would grow more so, with people on opposing sides hunkering down deeper in their camps and clinging harder to their chosen narratives as the president — concerned only with himself — ratcheted up his insistence that truth itself was subjective and up for grabs.

That’s not a reason to blink, but it’s a reality to brace for. At a juncture when we so desperately need to rediscover common ground, we’d be widening the fault lines. Bringing the country together afterward would call for more than a talented politician; it would demand a miracle worker. None of the Democratic presidential candidates qualify.

Impeachment should terrify you because it would mean a continued, relentless, overwhelming focus on Trump’s lawlessness, antics, fictions and inane tweets. He would win in the short term — and all Americans would lose — because as long as most of the oxygen in Washington is consumed by the ghastly carnival of this barker, there’s too little left for the nation’s very real problems and for scrutiny of his substantive inadequacy in addressing them.

From the House Republicans’ persecution of Hillary Clinton through the permanent hysteria of House Democrats under Trump, Washington has devolved ever further into a place where process muscles out progress, grandstanding eclipses governing and noise muffles any meaningful signal. To be engaged in politics is to be engaged in battle — and that shouldn’t and needn’t always be so.

Where’s the infrastructure plan that we’re — oh — a quarter-century late in implementing? Where are the fixes to a health care system whose problems go far beyond the tens of millions of Americans still uninsured? What about education? Impeachment would shove all of those issues even further to the margins than they already are.

During the Democratic primary and then the general election, the Trump melodrama and the Trump spectacle would overshadow all else. And many Americans’ estrangement from Washington — their cynicism about its ability to improve their lives even a whit — would intensify.

That could be all the more true on account of their confusion. If you’re favorably disposed toward Trump and receptive to his claims of persecution, you’ve watched the meticulous and drawn-out work of Robert Mueller, you’ve noticed a seemingly nonstop schedule of Capitol Hill hearings and of star witnesses (Michael Cohen, Mueller, Bill Barr, Corey Lewandowski), and you thought that the House Judiciary Committee was already doing an impeachment inquiry. The latest developments strike you as “Groundhog Day” on the Potomac.

If you’re horribly offended and utterly exhausted by Trump, you’re tempted to cheer impeachment as long-sought justice and prayed-for release and forget that it’s just the prelude to the main act, which is a trial in the Senate. That chamber is controlled by Republicans, who, based on current conditions, are as likely to convict Trump as they are to co-sponsor Elizabeth Warren’s wealth tax. So Trump’s supporters would wind up furious that he was put through what they regarded as an overwrought exercise with a foregone conclusion, while the frustration of Trump’s detractors would be exponentially multiplied. Let the healing begin!

And would impeachment proceedings effectively lay bare — and force Americans to focus on — sins of Trump’s that are being ignored? That’s long been one of Democrats’ arguments for impeachment, but I wonder. For starters, some of the hearings to date — Lewandowski’s in particular — raise questions about their ability to pry loose what they want from witnesses and isolate the damning evidence amid the ambient vitriol. But more than that, there has been such saturation coverage of Trump that many voters may not be able to stomach it any more, and today’s political tribalism doesn’t allow for all that much in the way of epiphanies and transformations. Trump’s true colors were conspicuous from the start. You either saw a perverse rainbow or you stared into darkness.

Meanwhile, Trump. How vulnerable will drawn-out impeachment proceedings make him feel? How impotent? How desperate? To flex his power, vent his fury or distract the audience, what would he do? He’s untethered by scruple. He’s capable of anything. Maybe it’s not just a culture war that he’d whip up. Maybe it’s the real thing.

Certainly he’d do all he could to persuade Americans of the nefariousness of Democrats, and absolutely his strategy would be to smear the people, the procedures and the institutions arrayed against him as utterly unworthy of trust. If holding on to power meant ruling over rubble, so be it. Trump is beholden only to Trump, and he’d simply declare the rubble gold dust.
Ludwig--1974 Westfalia, 2.0L (GD035193), Solex 34PDSIT-2/3 carburetors.
Gertie--1971 Squareback, 1600cc with Bosch D-Jetronic fuel injection from a '72 (E brain).
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Re: Impeachment Proceedings

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:49 pm

whc03grady wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 12:00 pm
There's no surer a way to a Trump victory in 2020 than impeachment.
This dude nails it.
Frank Bruni in the NYT wrote:President Trump deserves to be impeached. But the prospect terrifies me, and it should terrify you, too.

I have heard arguments to the effect that the Clinton impeachment backfired spectacularly on the republicans in 1998, and that it would backfire spectacularly on the democrats here in 2019.

Clinton had a favorability rating of 63% before his, and 73% after.
Trump has a lower favorability rating and a very high unfavorability rating that means he has fewer committed defenders. He also has very many more charges piled up.

Because he lost the popular vote by 3 million in 2016, and has NOT acquired new fans, I think it is now a matter of our Nation's fealty to its own laws ...
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . . 112,660 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,845 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 112,885 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,899 miles

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Re: Impeachment Proceedings

Post by whc03grady » Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:45 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:49 pm
Clinton had a favorability rating of 63% before his, and 73% after.
Trump has a lower favorability rating and a very high unfavorability rating that means he has fewer committed defenders. He also has very many more charges piled up.
Rules predating the 2016 election season no longer apply. We are in uncharted territory.
Amskeptic wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 6:49 pm
Because he lost the popular vote by 3 million in 2016, and has NOT acquired new fans, I think it is now a matter of our Nation's fealty to its own laws ...
True, true, but the population as a whole does not favor impeachment.
There are no winners, as we witness the collapse of the Republic.
Ludwig--1974 Westfalia, 2.0L (GD035193), Solex 34PDSIT-2/3 carburetors.
Gertie--1971 Squareback, 1600cc with Bosch D-Jetronic fuel injection from a '72 (E brain).
Read about their adventures:
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Re: Impeachment Proceedings

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:53 am

whc03grady wrote:
Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:45 pm

True, true, but the population as a whole does not favor impeachment.
There are no winners, as we witness the collapse of the Republic.
In the news ... yes they now do.
Colin
(is there hope that the Rule of Law makes a come-back?)
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . . 112,660 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,845 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 112,885 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,899 miles

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Re: Impeachment Proceedings

Post by whc03grady » Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:57 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:53 am
(is there hope that the Rule of Law makes a come-back?)
You can hope and I'll begrudgingly admire you for doing so, but I'm not betting on it.
Ludwig--1974 Westfalia, 2.0L (GD035193), Solex 34PDSIT-2/3 carburetors.
Gertie--1971 Squareback, 1600cc with Bosch D-Jetronic fuel injection from a '72 (E brain).
Read about their adventures:
http://www.ludwigandgertie.blogspot.com

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Re: Impeachment Proceedings

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:58 pm

whc03grady wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 12:57 pm
Amskeptic wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 8:53 am
(is there hope that the Rule of Law makes a come-back?)
You can hope and I'll begrudgingly admire you for doing so, but I'm not betting on it.

I have been chatting with a representative of the Millenial generation who is filling me in on the modern nihilism that has infected their cohort.
Mitch.
You must reach all Millenials you meet and melt their cynical little hearts. You can do this.
Colin :cyclopsani:
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . . 112,660 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,845 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 112,885 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,899 miles

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Re: Impeachment Proceedings

Post by whc03grady » Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:09 am

Amskeptic wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 1:58 pm
I have been chatting with a representative of the Millenial generation who is filling me in on the modern nihilism that has infected their cohort.
Mitch.
You must reach all Millenials you meet and melt their cynical little hearts. You can do this.
Colin :cyclopsani:
I'm afraid I don't have too much hope for Millenials salvaging the rule of law, given that they're the first generation for whom alethic relativism is a native concept and is therefore taken as a given.
Ludwig--1974 Westfalia, 2.0L (GD035193), Solex 34PDSIT-2/3 carburetors.
Gertie--1971 Squareback, 1600cc with Bosch D-Jetronic fuel injection from a '72 (E brain).
Read about their adventures:
http://www.ludwigandgertie.blogspot.com

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Re: Impeachment Proceedings

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:28 pm

whc03grady wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:09 am
I'm afraid I don't have too much hope for Millenials salvaging the rule of law, given that they're the first generation for whom alethic relativism is a native concept and is therefore taken as a given.

No conversation that will do it. Engagement past their staked-out lonely phone culture alienation. Heart-melting thaws out disdainfully frozen hope.
Some of the younger generations still seem to be responsive. That they are upset with the current state of things is very very good.
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . . 112,660 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,845 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 112,885 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,899 miles

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Re: Impeachment Proceedings

Post by JLT » Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:48 am

Amskeptic wrote:
Wed Oct 02, 2019 5:28 pm

Some of the younger generations still seem to be responsive. That they are upset with the current state of things is very very good.
Colin
I agree. The student strike, Greta, the Parkland mobilization, are all positive signs that the next generation is going to be at least as activist as the '60s generation that I was a part of.

But we can't sit back and declare the battle won. We have to keep calling out truth to power, even if the power won't listen.
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Re: Impeachment Proceedings

Post by Amskeptic » Sun Oct 20, 2019 1:26 pm

JLT wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:48 am
The student strike, Greta, the Parkland mobilization, are all positive signs that the next generation is going to be at least as activist as the '60s generation that I was a part of.

But we can't sit back and declare the battle won. We have to keep calling out truth to power, even if the power won't listen.
Oh, you ain't seen nuttin' yet. I know of no fellow shell-shocked American who thinks a damn thing has been "won" just yet. I would just like to announce to the world that "good behavior" and "respect" must be adhered to at all times. There is no victory whatsoever in stooping to the level we see currently.
Colin :blackeye:
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . . 112,660 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,845 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 112,885 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,899 miles

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Re: Impeachment Proceedings

Post by Sylvester » Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:30 pm

I say let the proceedings go, maybe passed by the house but it will die in the Senate for sure. Damn the approval ratings, if we let this go then when do we proceed with the next blunder Trump does? Or there is no threshold?
Up, up the long, delirious, burning blue, I’ve topped the wind-swept heights with easy grace. Where never lark, or even eagle flew. And, while with silent, lifting mind I've trod, The high untrespassed sanctity of space, Put out my hand, and touched the face of God.

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Re: Impeachment Proceedings

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:06 pm

Sylvester wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:30 pm
I say let the proceedings go, maybe passed by the house but it will die in the Senate for sure. Damn the approval ratings, if we let this go then when do we proceed with the next blunder Trump does? Or there is no threshold?
Two, three months ago, I really thought that it would obviously die in the Senate.

I think we may need to revisit the "herd mentality" aspect to public popularity. People follow their tribe's posture to the very end (Nixon's was the "Silent Majority") ... until they don't. Nixon's collapse of support happened virtually overnight between August 5th and August 8th of 1974.
We are seeing some beginning schisms developing before our eyes. Lindsey Graham just found his own voice yesterday, and warned Trump. That is a new dynamic. Republican followers (there are many) change their minds when it looks hopeless for them. When the herd starts stampeding away from this current WH occupant, the Senate may very well vote their new-found consciences just in time for the elections.

Please note that we are living in a very "interesting time".
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . . 112,660 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,845 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 112,885 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 78,899 miles

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