Charge Indicator & Low Cranking Power

[Gypsie]

I am having a bit of a dilemma.

I have been trying to fix my gas gauge and have concluded that there are other issues that need attention before getting carried away on this track any further.

Some specs and questions first:

1980 Vanagon,

Should the dash battery/charging indicator light come on when the key is turned on prior to ignition? Maybe I am remembering this wrong, but I thought it did at one point.

I have wired in a battery selector switch to pick Main/Aux/Both for easy back up power in times of need.

I have also wired in an aux battery charging isolator (independent of the selector switch).

All aux power (stereo, lighter, power outlets, interior and camper lights) are drawing from the aux battery only.

Troubling symptom: Aside from the indicator light, which may or may not be an issue, my cranking power from my main battery (3 month old 72-month heavy duty Les Schwab) is weak, even after a full charge up on a charger. When I select the aux for starting, (an el-cheapo, 60 month from a McParts store) I have what feels like double the cranking power.

I have checked and cleaned the main ground.

I think there may be some misdirected routing from the main/starter/alternator wiring. The 16 and 50? (blade type connections on the starter may be reversed.

I have been wrestling with the wiring diagrams in the Bentley.

Not really seeking specific answers, rather some input for things to explore, and perhaps some testing protocols.

I have a snazzy multimeter and the skills to use it.

-Next will be some questions about wiring in a couple a glass mat batteries for aux power. Looking to have juice for an inverter to set up recording gear for our back-country jam sessions. Hoping to get some guidance from you electrical engineer types.

[Amskeptic]

cranking power from my main battery (3 month old 72-month heavy duty Les Schwab) is weak, even after a full charge up on a charger. When I select the aux for starting, (an el-cheapo, 60 month from a McParts store) I have what feels like double the cranking power.

testing protocols.

Swap actual batteries. If cheapo (in the main position now) cranks nicely, you have a main battery issue. If it is still sluggish, you have a main cable-to-starter or main ground-to-chassis issue.
Colin

[Gypsie]

Okay, here's how it played out

Was planning on swapping batteries and maybe uncluttering some of the main/aux network to clean up the juice flow.

I decided to unwrap the positive lead off of the main (heavily wrapped and found a shoddy connection.

Cleaned it up and reconnected.

MUCH BETTER. Cranking power and cleaner power for lights etc.

Bad Connection! Bad Connection!!!

I still have no charge indicator light though. I tested the LED and found it good. (I tested them all while I was there for thoroughness sake. All good.)

I also checked the 14 pin instrument cluster connection (ICC) on the back of cluster for continuity and voltage. It seems okay though I am not sure what will tell me that there is a proper flow to the particular parts of the connection.

Any Ideas?

Bentley says 9 and 13 on the foil should read 140-160 ohms. I get app 180. Says to replace if over 160.

HMMMM?


I know I know....So it is written...blah blah blah...

I would like to know if I am properly connected before puttin' down any more dough on another cluster and/or if I can swap out resistors only.

What tells the indicator light to come on?

I also want to see if my fuel sender is 'sending' to the ICC.

Any recommendations for multimeter testing?

[hambone]

Have you been to www.vanagon.com ?
Wiring on that dashpod thingy is tricky, lots of weird terminal strip plastic stuff. I think you're at the mercy of tracing "wires" with a Bentley wiring diagram to find the short.

[Amskeptic]

What tells the indicator light to come on?

There are two 12 volt supplies to the idiot light. So long as they are equal, no idiot light. If the alternator side drops out while the battery side is still juiced, you get the light. The alternator side gets juice from the regulator, (there is a litte blue wire attached to the red wire terminal of the regulator on the bay windows, check Vanagon wiring diagram to verify color).
Colin

[Gypsie]

I started working on this issue and got sidetracked with some other electrical issues.

I have to beam a little cause I found and fixed an issue with my horn.

My horn hasn't been working for some time and I jumped in to track down the prob.

I found the little brush connector that touches the ring on the steering wheel plumb gone.

I got a chance to do one of my favorite things, manufacture a part.

I took some long staples and flattened them out. Three worked just fine and slipped right ito the female connector slick as slime. I bent over the "brush" end in an arc so the end would become spring like.

Works like a charm and if the 'spring' tires it will be an easy swap out in the future. I may even clean the glue off of the staples for better contact for the next go 'round.

[Gypsie]

Ripped into the elect. system yesterday.


Did some testing but not sure if I am on the right track.

I tested for voltage at the main instrument cluster connection.

Found steady 12.5 or thereabouts at #7 (clock connection).

Bentley says that the alternator warning light (61 or D+) is connection #13. My thought is that connection 13 should have 12+V when the engine is running. Is this correct?


Bentley also says that position 9 is "positive terminal 15". There is no power reading at this connection point. I tracked this upstream from the connector and found it is connected to terminal P on the ignition switch. The main power into the ignition switch is terminal 15. I get no continuity from terminal 15 to terminal P in any key position on the switch.

I took the ignition switch apart and cleaned it up (lots of carbon and schmutch). The terminal and internal connection have continuity but with the switch assembled there is still no continuity between 15 and P. All other terminals have continuity as they should.

This may be the connection problem as there is continuity from the terminal connector to the multi-pin instrument panel connector.

My thought is that this terminal should be supplying 12 volts to the #9 terminal.

I also wonder if this connection issue may be contributing to the fuel gauge issue.

Thoughts?

[Gypsie]

Last night at the lab I was discussing this sitch and after getting an earful about ordering an ignition switch from a vendor across country, (I had a sizable order and the price was fair, so there PHBTPHBTPHBT!), Covelo said, "It's the alternator, every time I have an electrical problem it's the alternator!"

I told him the alternator was new. It had taken me to Montana and back.

No probs.

It was eating at me so when I got home I did some testing and found the alternator putting out app .09 volts!

WTF!

I may have kilt it with my recent work. It may have been in the throes of dying the whole time with the bad connection at the positive battery terminal?!?, who knows. 6 months old and dead!

I went in today and bought a regulator and will install it tonight. I am hopeful that this will resolve this particular issue and will give me a chance to keep rolling.

Lessons and benefits of this job so far (lemonade from lemons as it were):

I have become very familiar with the wiring diagram and all the dash connections. This familiarity will help with any future electrical issues.

The scientific method (or 'step by step' or 'first things first') will help reduce chasing one's tail. Had I not checked the alternator output I would keep trying to fix things that may not be broke.

I appreciate having a community of trusted perspectives to draw from.

There's more, I'm sure.

I will let you know how it goes.

[Amskeptic]

The scientific method (or 'step by step' or 'first things first') will help reduce chasing one's tail.

=D>

[bus71]

I'll throw this out in the "for what it's worth" spirit. Our Vanagon had electrical gremlins when we got it. Over the years I've seen ground issues in many cars. I did my "shotgun" approach. The vanagon now has 10 gage wire grounding the alt directly to the battery. The dash is also grounded this way. There is an additonal wire from engine to body. No more oddly glowing lights, intermittant turn signals, etc. Cleaning the factory grounds had'nt helped. It must have something to do with unseen corrosion but I don't think about it much. It's easy to do and saves frustration.

[Gypsie]

I am sitting here red faced and one regulator poorer (though the one I just replaced will go into the emergency roadside supply box).

When I went to dive back in today I started with installing my new regulator. I noticed that one of the wires had gotten pinched under the switch I had mounted for the main/aux option I mentioned earlier. I loosened the mount and found that the wire had grounded out, this was wired from the positive regulator connection and intended to engage the isolator to allow the alt to charge the aux battery.

This was the same wire I used to check alternator function the other night and had not noticed the pinch then.

Would this grounding out have made the alternator or regulator hum when running?

I set things right and installed the voltmeter that Tristessa gave me the other night. running at 14+ volts with no hum from the engine bay.

I still have no indicator lights when I turn on the key but am glad I have a functioning alternator.

I will still try to figger these things out. I think I may try Wayne's Idea next (i.e the gauge voltage regulator (vibrator?)). This may only have an impact on the gas gauge (my only real concern and what started this whole process).

I will keep you all posted.
Oh...
and the ground idea is a good one and will be worked into the mix.

[Gypsie]

Update.

Alternator working fine. Voltmeter confirming status!

Still no indicator lights post key-turn and pre-start?!?

Interesting symptom. My EGR light comes on after a few minutes of running. EGR system is removed. I cannot find where this signal is coming from, though when it kicks on the voltmeter kicks up from showing 12 volts to 14 (or thereabouts)?

Position # 9 on the instrument panel connector only shows 6 volts and the
D+ line (from the alternator) has no voltage at the dash though it does at the alternator.

My thoughts are that I have a short somewhere from the engine bay connection to the instrument panel connection.
Proposed test procedure: Disconnect D+ at engine bay, jumper to ground and test continuity at instrument panel connection (from wire to ground)?

The wire dives into a harness and travels to the front under the bus Methinks there is a rub point somewheres and this may be interfering with flow.

[Gypsie]

Fixed.

Cranking power restored with repaired positive battery post connection.

Indicator lights and gas gauge repaired with corrected ignition wiring.

A closer relationship with the Gypsie Wagon.

[hambone]

So what happened? Details!! Especially after all this.

[Gypsie]

Long story short:

It was sitting in a field for 18+ months and had been ripped into to attempt a hot-wire to steal it. Loose wires were reconnected by myself. One wire had been pulled from a connection at the ignition switch meant to hold two leads. I rewired the loose lead to it's own connector and this error created this whole frustrating mess.







DOH!

I throw myself on my 'hurry up and get 'er running' sword.

This was two days before the infamous Squaw Lake Camping In The Clouds trip wherein I attempted to take an unknown quantity into the outback and had to be towed home, only to throw everything into the other bus I happened to have sitting in my driveway at the time.

C'est La Vie!