Why that little starter bushing is important...
- JLT
- Old School!
- Location: Sacramento CA
- Status: Offline
Why that little starter bushing is important...
I thought some of you out there might benefit from this little tale:
When I replaced the starter in George about four years ago, I got this very nice little brass bushing which was supposed to be installed at the same time. I'd replaced a few starters before in my time, and they all came with the bushing and the admonition to put it in. I always waited until I had the engine out for some reason or another and replaced the bushing at that time. It was easy then; all you needed was a hammer and a drift. You'd knock the old bushing out and replace it with the new one, easy peasy.
I should note that, in those days, I was driving a lot more (20k miles a year at least) and running my engines a lot harder and leaner than I do now, and was getting maybe two or three years between engine pulls, what with always burning up my heads.
Well, when I replaced the starter this time, the engine was new, and I've only put maybe 23,000 miles on it in four years. On the way back from Buses By the Bridge this year, I had a lot of trouble starting the bus ... sometimes it would take seven or eight turns of the key. It was as if the solenoid itself was screwing up. No rawr-rawr-rawr-rawr-rawr-rawr at all, not even a click. Sometimes I could get it to start by putting it in neutral and rotating the engine a smidge. All the clues were there, but I didn't pick up on them.
I knew the starter had to come out, so I researched what it would take to get that damn bushing out to replace it at the same time. I found that you needed a special VW tool. If you didn't have that tool, you could get a tap slightly larger than the ID of the bushing, tap some threads into it, and pull it out that way. I happened to have a tap of that size, so I went to the used tool store and spent a buck and a half for an adapter to use it with my 3/8" drive ratchet.
I pulled the starter out and as far as I could tell, there was nothing at all wrong with either it or the solenoid. Maybe the connections were bad. Only way to tell was to put the starter back in and test them, one by one. Oh, and I might as well change that bushing, since the starter was out anyway.
I positioned the tap to start the threading process. It went right through to the flywheel. It turned out that the old bushing was almost completely gone. It was a thin sliver of brass that easily came out when I pulled on it with my little finger. I had assumed that the bushing had been replaced when the tranny was rebuilt about thirty thousand miles ago (or so the previous owner told me), but as our governor once famously said, "That was then, and this is now." I oiled the new bushing, slid it in, and tapped it home with a hammer and a piece of dowel. The starter went back in and guess what?
So now I know that replacing that little bushing isn't as hard as I thought, it can actually be done with the engine in the car with a minimum of tooling, and that I should have done it long ago. And the symptoms of a failing bushing are a lot like the symptoms of a failing solenoid.
And now you know that, too.
When I replaced the starter in George about four years ago, I got this very nice little brass bushing which was supposed to be installed at the same time. I'd replaced a few starters before in my time, and they all came with the bushing and the admonition to put it in. I always waited until I had the engine out for some reason or another and replaced the bushing at that time. It was easy then; all you needed was a hammer and a drift. You'd knock the old bushing out and replace it with the new one, easy peasy.
I should note that, in those days, I was driving a lot more (20k miles a year at least) and running my engines a lot harder and leaner than I do now, and was getting maybe two or three years between engine pulls, what with always burning up my heads.
Well, when I replaced the starter this time, the engine was new, and I've only put maybe 23,000 miles on it in four years. On the way back from Buses By the Bridge this year, I had a lot of trouble starting the bus ... sometimes it would take seven or eight turns of the key. It was as if the solenoid itself was screwing up. No rawr-rawr-rawr-rawr-rawr-rawr at all, not even a click. Sometimes I could get it to start by putting it in neutral and rotating the engine a smidge. All the clues were there, but I didn't pick up on them.
I knew the starter had to come out, so I researched what it would take to get that damn bushing out to replace it at the same time. I found that you needed a special VW tool. If you didn't have that tool, you could get a tap slightly larger than the ID of the bushing, tap some threads into it, and pull it out that way. I happened to have a tap of that size, so I went to the used tool store and spent a buck and a half for an adapter to use it with my 3/8" drive ratchet.
I pulled the starter out and as far as I could tell, there was nothing at all wrong with either it or the solenoid. Maybe the connections were bad. Only way to tell was to put the starter back in and test them, one by one. Oh, and I might as well change that bushing, since the starter was out anyway.
I positioned the tap to start the threading process. It went right through to the flywheel. It turned out that the old bushing was almost completely gone. It was a thin sliver of brass that easily came out when I pulled on it with my little finger. I had assumed that the bushing had been replaced when the tranny was rebuilt about thirty thousand miles ago (or so the previous owner told me), but as our governor once famously said, "That was then, and this is now." I oiled the new bushing, slid it in, and tapped it home with a hammer and a piece of dowel. The starter went back in and guess what?
So now I know that replacing that little bushing isn't as hard as I thought, it can actually be done with the engine in the car with a minimum of tooling, and that I should have done it long ago. And the symptoms of a failing bushing are a lot like the symptoms of a failing solenoid.
And now you know that, too.
-- JLT
Sacramento CA
Present bus: '71 Dormobile Westie "George"
(sometimes towing a '65 Allstate single-wheel trailer)
Former buses: '61 17-window Deluxe "Pink Bus"
'70 Frankenwestie "Blunder Bus"
'71 Frankenwestie "Thunder Bus"
Sacramento CA
Present bus: '71 Dormobile Westie "George"
(sometimes towing a '65 Allstate single-wheel trailer)
Former buses: '61 17-window Deluxe "Pink Bus"
'70 Frankenwestie "Blunder Bus"
'71 Frankenwestie "Thunder Bus"
- sped372
- IAC Addict!
- Location: Waunakee, WI
- Status: Offline
Re: Why that little starter bushing is important...
Good to know, thanks for the writeup!
1971 Karmann Ghia - 1600 DP
1984 Westfalia - 1.9 WBX
1984 Westfalia - 1.9 WBX
- Amskeptic
- IAC "Help Desk"
- Status: Offline
Re: Why that little starter bushing is important...
Was the new bushing a press fit? I have happened across bushings that spun in their bores due to lack of lubrication or a build-up of nasty grease tar.JLT wrote:I oiled the new bushing, slid it in, and tapped it home with a hammer and a piece of dowel. The starter went back in and guess what? the symptoms of a failing bushing are a lot like the symptoms of a failing solenoid.
And now you know that, too.
My last bushing job, came out with no more than a bolt hammered into the brass, then pulled with visegrips . . . Mitch had a new bushing that could fall out. We used loctite, I believe.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles
- JLT
- Old School!
- Location: Sacramento CA
- Status: Offline
Re: Why that little starter bushing is important...
Yes. It went in without trouble ... a few taps of the hammer, and it was in.Amskeptic wrote:
Was the new bushing a press fit?
-- JLT
Sacramento CA
Present bus: '71 Dormobile Westie "George"
(sometimes towing a '65 Allstate single-wheel trailer)
Former buses: '61 17-window Deluxe "Pink Bus"
'70 Frankenwestie "Blunder Bus"
'71 Frankenwestie "Thunder Bus"
Sacramento CA
Present bus: '71 Dormobile Westie "George"
(sometimes towing a '65 Allstate single-wheel trailer)
Former buses: '61 17-window Deluxe "Pink Bus"
'70 Frankenwestie "Blunder Bus"
'71 Frankenwestie "Thunder Bus"
- Amskeptic
- IAC "Help Desk"
- Status: Offline
Re: Why that little starter bushing is important...
I'm sayin' . . . a little trouble is good.JLT wrote:Yes. It went in without trouble ... a few taps of the hammer, and it was in.Amskeptic wrote:
Was the new bushing a press fit?
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles
- hambone
- Post-Industrial Non-Secular Mennonite
- Location: Portland, Ore.
- Status: Offline
Re: Why that little starter bushing is important...
"bolt hammered into the brass, then pulled with visegrips"
excellent suggestion, I love lo-tek!
excellent suggestion, I love lo-tek!
http://greencascadia.blogspot.com
http://pdxvolksfolks.blogspot.com
it balances on your head just like a mattress balances on a bottle of wine
your brand new leopard skin pillbox hat
http://pdxvolksfolks.blogspot.com
it balances on your head just like a mattress balances on a bottle of wine
your brand new leopard skin pillbox hat
- DjEep
- IAC Addict!
- Location: Nowhere, Fast
- Status: Offline
Re: Why that little starter bushing is important...
all you need is a tap or bolt, no vice grips needed. Just thread in and keep spinning (preferably with a power tool of some sort, little drill with socket adapter works great) the tap will do the work of pushing it out when it bottoms out on the case.
"Live life, love life. Enjoy the pleasures and the sorrows. For it is the bleak valleys, the dark corners that make the peaks all the more magnificent. And once you realize that, you begin to see the beauty hidden within those valleys, and learn to love the climb." - Anonymous
Do you want to Survive? Or do you want to LIVE?
Do you want to Survive? Or do you want to LIVE?
- Amskeptic
- IAC "Help Desk"
- Status: Offline
Re: Why that little starter bushing is important...
For reference, what does that do to the case? Are we talking about a spinning hardened metal object pressing into the case as it threads the bushing out?DjEep wrote:when it bottoms out on the case.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles
- JLT
- Old School!
- Location: Sacramento CA
- Status: Offline
Re: Why that little starter bushing is important...
I think he was talking about how, if the tap actually threads the bushing and keeps on going goes through it, it will bottom out on the case or whatever and keep turning, which kinda pulls the bushing out like a cork from a bottle.Amskeptic wrote:For reference, what does that do to the case? Are we talking about a spinning hardened metal object pressing into the case as it threads the bushing out?DjEep wrote:when it bottoms out on the case.
Colin
-- JLT
Sacramento CA
Present bus: '71 Dormobile Westie "George"
(sometimes towing a '65 Allstate single-wheel trailer)
Former buses: '61 17-window Deluxe "Pink Bus"
'70 Frankenwestie "Blunder Bus"
'71 Frankenwestie "Thunder Bus"
Sacramento CA
Present bus: '71 Dormobile Westie "George"
(sometimes towing a '65 Allstate single-wheel trailer)
Former buses: '61 17-window Deluxe "Pink Bus"
'70 Frankenwestie "Blunder Bus"
'71 Frankenwestie "Thunder Bus"
- ruckman101
- Lord God King Bwana
- Location: Up next to a volcano.
- Contact:
- Status: Offline
Re: Why that little starter bushing is important...
When attempting to put in your new bushing, block the hole into the transmission bell housing. You don't want to drop the bushing in there by accident. Otherwise you will be pulling the engine, at least enough to retrieve your bushing. Yes, I know from experience. I used a tap to pull out the old bushing, and a nut and bolt to slide the new one in. It was very very snug. The engine was still pulled out a bit.
neal
neal
The slipper has no teeth.
- DjEep
- IAC Addict!
- Location: Nowhere, Fast
- Status: Offline
Re: Why that little starter bushing is important...
What JLT said. I've done dozens that way, never had a problem with the case being damaged.
"Live life, love life. Enjoy the pleasures and the sorrows. For it is the bleak valleys, the dark corners that make the peaks all the more magnificent. And once you realize that, you begin to see the beauty hidden within those valleys, and learn to love the climb." - Anonymous
Do you want to Survive? Or do you want to LIVE?
Do you want to Survive? Or do you want to LIVE?
- Amskeptic
- IAC "Help Desk"
- Status: Offline
Re: Why that little starter bushing is important...
Exactly, spinning sharp high carbon cutting steel "bottoming out on the case or whatever" . . .JLT wrote: I think he was talking about how, if the tap actually threads the bushing and keeps on going goes through it, it will bottom out on the case or whatever and keep turning, which kinda pulls the bushing out like a cork from a bottle.
Sez DjEep, and I quote:
never had a problem with the case being damaged.
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles
- drober23
- Addicted!
- Location: Metro Detroit
- Status: Offline
Re: Why that little starter bushing is important...
I suppose if you wanted to ensure gentleness, you could put a slight radius on the end of the bolt and smooth it out a bit. This would leave dull rounded spinning metal mass to caress the case instead of a sharp one to gouge things.
I'm with DJ (hey wait, I AM DJ...). Ok, I'm with DJEep on this one. Don't suspect the bolt would do much damage to the case as you probably won't be spinning it fast anyway. Oh! This is now on my list of things to do pre-trip. I have been having what I have taken to be solenoid problems. Fixing this should be part of my due diligence in tracking down that problem.
I'm with DJ (hey wait, I AM DJ...). Ok, I'm with DJEep on this one. Don't suspect the bolt would do much damage to the case as you probably won't be spinning it fast anyway. Oh! This is now on my list of things to do pre-trip. I have been having what I have taken to be solenoid problems. Fixing this should be part of my due diligence in tracking down that problem.
DJ
'75 Westfalia, '79 Deluxe
(plus more busses than sense)
In a time of chimpanzees I was a monkey
'75 Westfalia, '79 Deluxe
(plus more busses than sense)
In a time of chimpanzees I was a monkey
- Amskeptic
- IAC "Help Desk"
- Status: Offline
Re: Why that little starter bushing is important...
Although a loose bushing may cause the starter to hang up with similar symptoms to the famous VW hard-start issue, the famous VW hard-start issue does exist for other reasons, too. I fixed a famous VW hard-start issue in the BobD (with certifiably fresh starter bushing) merely by cleaning trans/battery ground paths to sparklingly shiny + DeOx gel.drober23 wrote: This is now on my list of things to do pre-trip. I have been having what I have taken to be solenoid problems. Fixing this should be part of my due diligence in tracking down that problem.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles