Restarting after 12 years in storage
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Restarting after 12 years in storage
greets to all. I decided to start asking questions here first because of the reputation for experience and wisdom trumping a fast answer and bucket of half-wit comments elsewhere.
The vehicle is a 1977 Champagne I. It is all stock, right down to the seat cushions. And rust. And critters in various states of decomposition. It sat in a barn in down-state Delaware for 12 years after having been driven in, running, with only an exhaust leak and a sloppy shifter against it. Its was part of a divorce settlement (the other half is the one who let it rot in the barn) and I bought it from the second owner.
As far as I can tell, the vehicle was literally pulled into the barn with a partial tank of fuel....and simply left. It is being delivered to my place by flatbed this weekend. I've thoroughly gone over it and the rust is mostly patina. Body rust is negligible. But man, is it filthy!
So that's the backstory. I'm looking for a cross-check on the procedure I intend to use to restart the beast, who has whispered in my ear that his name is Ferdinand.
Here's the planned procedure:
1. Drain the fuel tank (If that sludge in there will even drain) and then clamp off the output.
2. disconnect Fuel pump from primary harness, give it a drink from a jerry can, and then give it power to see if it will even turn and if so, will it put out the correct amount of fuel per minute.
3. If the fuel pump will run, reconnect to main harness, do a check of the plugs, HT leads, and inspect points, cap and rotor.
4. Perform FI harness tests per Bentley between FI plug and sensors. Any that come back out of spec, check it at the sensor.
5. Connect a new battery and pull #15 on the coil.
6. Dump the oil in the case, and put in a new filter and new oil. (What weight? Brand? Extenders?)
7. Turn the engine over with the new battery until I lose the oil light. This should prime the oil pump with newer lube, as well as re-priming the fuel ring.
8. Set the fire extinguisher within reach of my assistant.
9. Say my "Hail Mary"s reconnect the coil, and turn the key.
10. Rejoice or diagnose, as required.
I'm especially concerned with whatever goop has been sitting in the bottom of the case for more than a decade. Is it worth it to, after draining the oil remove the strainer plate, and *very carefully* rinse out bottom of the oil sump with a solvent before refilling the case with new oil?
I'm trying to be as conscientious as possible because I want to avoid accidently damaging this engine while restarting it. Since I won't be able to get accurate leakdown or compression data without the engine having warmed up, I'm planning to wait until 15 minutes after "Rejoice" (See #10, above) to try to feel out the leakiness of the engine.
Any comments would be much appreciated. Don't be surprised if you see this same, or similar post on other sites: I'm casting the net very wide on purpose. Thanks for any wisdom you might be able to add.
Marshall
The vehicle is a 1977 Champagne I. It is all stock, right down to the seat cushions. And rust. And critters in various states of decomposition. It sat in a barn in down-state Delaware for 12 years after having been driven in, running, with only an exhaust leak and a sloppy shifter against it. Its was part of a divorce settlement (the other half is the one who let it rot in the barn) and I bought it from the second owner.
As far as I can tell, the vehicle was literally pulled into the barn with a partial tank of fuel....and simply left. It is being delivered to my place by flatbed this weekend. I've thoroughly gone over it and the rust is mostly patina. Body rust is negligible. But man, is it filthy!
So that's the backstory. I'm looking for a cross-check on the procedure I intend to use to restart the beast, who has whispered in my ear that his name is Ferdinand.
Here's the planned procedure:
1. Drain the fuel tank (If that sludge in there will even drain) and then clamp off the output.
2. disconnect Fuel pump from primary harness, give it a drink from a jerry can, and then give it power to see if it will even turn and if so, will it put out the correct amount of fuel per minute.
3. If the fuel pump will run, reconnect to main harness, do a check of the plugs, HT leads, and inspect points, cap and rotor.
4. Perform FI harness tests per Bentley between FI plug and sensors. Any that come back out of spec, check it at the sensor.
5. Connect a new battery and pull #15 on the coil.
6. Dump the oil in the case, and put in a new filter and new oil. (What weight? Brand? Extenders?)
7. Turn the engine over with the new battery until I lose the oil light. This should prime the oil pump with newer lube, as well as re-priming the fuel ring.
8. Set the fire extinguisher within reach of my assistant.
9. Say my "Hail Mary"s reconnect the coil, and turn the key.
10. Rejoice or diagnose, as required.
I'm especially concerned with whatever goop has been sitting in the bottom of the case for more than a decade. Is it worth it to, after draining the oil remove the strainer plate, and *very carefully* rinse out bottom of the oil sump with a solvent before refilling the case with new oil?
I'm trying to be as conscientious as possible because I want to avoid accidently damaging this engine while restarting it. Since I won't be able to get accurate leakdown or compression data without the engine having warmed up, I'm planning to wait until 15 minutes after "Rejoice" (See #10, above) to try to feel out the leakiness of the engine.
Any comments would be much appreciated. Don't be surprised if you see this same, or similar post on other sites: I'm casting the net very wide on purpose. Thanks for any wisdom you might be able to add.
Marshall
- Amskeptic
- IAC "Help Desk"
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Re: Restarting after 12 years in storage
6. change oil and filter (Whatever 10-40w) **inspect drain plate and strainer - they will tell you if you have a problem with the condition of the crankcase. If the drain plate is not loaded with an inch of sludge and the screen is good, yer good.webwalker wrote: do a check of the plugs, HT leads, and inspect points, cap and rotor.
5. new battery and pull #15 on the coil.
*clean the points with a file and gap to .016, grease the breaker cam lightly (sand smooth with non-friable sandpaper first, if crusty rusted)
*teaspoon of engine oil down the plug holes, run starter briefly with no plugs installed (kill coil at #15)
skip this entire step. Leave sleeping dog alone as far as FI wiring. If engine will not start after you have checked all other components, then you can carefully disturb.webwalker wrote: 4. Perform FI harness tests per Bentley between FI plug and sensors. Any that come back out of spec, check it at the sensor.
With coil killed, double relay is too, fuel pump will not necessarily turn on. Do not turn over engine to kill oil light with plugs in, so do this at plug-out time.webwalker wrote: 7. Turn the engine over with the new battery until I lose the oil light. This should prime the oil pump with newer lube, as well as re-priming the fuel ring.
Only if problems were detected in drain plate, and not recommended anyway. Let your timely oil changes slowly clean the case through operation - change the oil frequently at the beginning.webwalker wrote: Is it worth it to, after draining the oil remove the strainer plate, and *very carefully* rinse out bottom of the oil sump with a solvent before refilling the case with new oil?
Drive it. If it warms up nicely enough, get it warm sooner rather than later. If the chassis does not allow you to drive, then vary your rpms like a cam break-in.webwalker wrote: I'm planning to wait until 15 minutes after "Rejoice" (See #10, above) to try to feel out the leakiness of the engine.
Any comments would be much appreciated. Don't be surprised if you see this same, or similar post on other sites: I'm casting the net very wide on purpose. Thanks for any wisdom you might be able to add.
Marshall
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles
- ruckman101
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Re: Restarting after 12 years in storage
Kind of like the found in a cave beetle in Woody Allen's "Sleeper".
neal
neal
The slipper has no teeth.
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Re: Restarting after 12 years in storage
Thanks Colin! That type of correction to procedures was just what I was looking for! You're especially right about the FI VOM checks now that I think about it: Why take time, trouble and worry to inspect something that is not necessarily on the critical path? Thank you for that reminder!Amskeptic wrote: Drive it. If it warms up nicely enough, get it warm sooner rather than later. If the chassis does not allow you to drive, then vary your rpms like a cam break-in.
Colin
Marshall
- SlowLane
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Re: Restarting after 12 years in storage
Okay, I didn't see this anywhere in your list, so:
REPLACE FUEL HOSES!! Before you even attempt to run fuel 'round the ring.
Sorry for shouting. Oh, and welcome to the obsession.
REPLACE FUEL HOSES!! Before you even attempt to run fuel 'round the ring.
Sorry for shouting. Oh, and welcome to the obsession.
'81 Canadian Westfalia (2.0L, manual), now Californiated
"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."
- Terry Pratchett
"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."
- Terry Pratchett
- Amskeptic
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Re: Restarting after 12 years in storage
Oh yeah, check the fuel hoses . . .SlowLane wrote:Okay, I didn't see this anywhere in your list, so:
REPLACE FUEL HOSES!! Before you even attempt to run fuel 'round the ring.
Sorry for shouting. Oh, and welcome to the obsession.
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles
- Sylvester
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Re: Restarting after 12 years in storage
Take some PICTURES!!!!!! I wanna see, and I am graphically challenged!
Up, up the long, delirious, burning blue, I’ve topped the wind-swept heights with easy grace. Where never lark, or even eagle flew. And, while with silent, lifting mind I've trod, The high untrespassed sanctity of space, Put out my hand, and touched the face of God.
- SlowLane
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Re: Restarting after 12 years in storage
You may be pleasantly surprised at how well the innards of you engine have weathered the years of inactivity. Just last year I fired up my '81 after 5 years of sitting outdoors (through some of the worst winters in recent Vancouver history) without even changing the oil first (since is was sitting in a storage facility, I was limited as to how much mechaniking I could do). After a minimum amount of engine preparation, I drove it down the coast here to California. It ran perfectly the whole way.webwalker wrote:Any comments would be much appreciated. Don't be surprised if you see this same, or similar post on other sites: I'm casting the net very wide on purpose. Thanks for any wisdom you might be able to add.
Granted, I had done a complete meticulous rebuild of the engine the year before parking it, but it would seem that the engine was in about the same shape as when I parked it.
The one item which had rotted out during the long sit was the cheap Brazilian AAR elbow. Replaced that with a genuine VW part and I was good to go. Highly recommend you check the AAR elbow.
Aside from any nuggets of hard-earned wisdom you might find here, you should also check out Ratwell's site: http://www.ratwell.com. There is a load of good information there, presented in a very well-organized fashion.
Good luck.
'81 Canadian Westfalia (2.0L, manual), now Californiated
"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."
- Terry Pratchett
"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."
- Terry Pratchett
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Re: Restarting after 12 years in storage
Pictures, for the graphically challenged, are here:Sylvester wrote:Take some PICTURES!!!!!! I wanna see, and I am graphically challenged!
http://webwrench.smugmug.com/Other/1977-VW-Bus
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Re: Restarting after 12 years in storage
I've read Richard's site like a prep guide for all the stuff I expect to go wrong, but hasn't yet. It is a pure gold mine. I also try to find all of Colin's raps on various procedures, 'cause God knows I'm going to need to run most of them.SlowLane wrote:After a minimum amount of engine preparation, I drove it down the coast here to California. It ran perfectly the whole way. The one item which had rotted out during the long sit was the cheap Brazilian AAR elbow. Replaced that with a genuine VW part and I was good to go. Highly recommend you check the AAR elbow.webwalker wrote:Any comments would be much appreciated. Don't be surprised if you see this same, or similar post on other sites: I'm casting the net very wide on purpose. Thanks for any wisdom you might be able to add.
Aside from any nuggets of hard-earned wisdom you might find here, you should also check out Ratwell's site: http://www.ratwell.com. There is a load of good information there, presented in a very well-organized fashion.
Good luck.
That said, we cleaned up Ferdinand the Bulli over the weekend and I found the inside in excellent shape, the frame in great shape, and the wheels even turn. (I'm not stupid enough to apply the brakes though.)
The only things that appears to be missing from the Bus are:
The under-seat hot vent (which someone on thesamba just stiffed me over after I'd payed him.)
The EGR filter, which has the fittings blocked off on both ends.
Other than that, its complete.
M
- Amskeptic
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Re: Restarting after 12 years in storage
Looks like you have a very good starting point for a $12,000.00- $14,000.00 car when you are done.webwalker wrote:
we cleaned up Ferdinand the Bulli over the weekend and I found the inside in excellent shape, the frame in great shape, and the wheels even turn. (I'm not stupid enough to apply the brakes though.)
(did I mention life-long memories for your kid too?)
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles
- Gypsie
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Re: Restarting after 12 years in storage
I second slowlanes AAR recommendation, fuel line replacement no sense making a fuel cloud in an engine bay from a pinhole under pressure, as well as leaving the FI harness alone for now.
You are mentioning "first start after sitting" and things to avoid or do to prevent damage. I will presume that after the start up you plan on "resetting the foundation": points, forensic valve adjustment (check both where the valve is when you start adjustments and then and set to spec.), timing, plugs, etc...
The start position in the process will not tell you much, but can be recorded and referenced in the future. If you find most of the valves adjusted properly but there is one or two out of spec it may mean a bad initial set or a sign of innards activity. keeping track is helpful.
I suggest that after you have gotten Ferdinand cranked and, hopefully, started you check all rubber in the engine bay area. Them vacuum leaks will drive you crazy when you are dialing in. Don't get all 'Hulky' but give a gentle squeeze or at least a good close look at the hoses connected to the sboot. Don't necessarily squeeze the sboot but a good inspection is called for. Look at the end of the intake runner boots, if they are crackled, replace. Any crunchy/crackly hose rubber should be replaced. Heck I would recommend replacing just about all the soft goods in there anyway but mostly anything that could allow a vac leak. Double check vac routing.
Lastly I say give the fuel circuit a good once over with an eye to what comes out of the tank. Fresh fuel filter, cut open the old one to see what was pulled into the element when it was last run. rust never sleeps and a half empty tank has a lot of rustable surface area inside. Here in the NW the air is wet most of the year. Things that sit in humid air start morphing and growing stuff.
If this garage it sat in had a halfway decent protection from the elements, you may just have a little diamond to polish. Good luck and definitely post before and after pix.
2 cents
Oh, and welcome. Look forward to seeing more posts.
You are mentioning "first start after sitting" and things to avoid or do to prevent damage. I will presume that after the start up you plan on "resetting the foundation": points, forensic valve adjustment (check both where the valve is when you start adjustments and then and set to spec.), timing, plugs, etc...
The start position in the process will not tell you much, but can be recorded and referenced in the future. If you find most of the valves adjusted properly but there is one or two out of spec it may mean a bad initial set or a sign of innards activity. keeping track is helpful.
I suggest that after you have gotten Ferdinand cranked and, hopefully, started you check all rubber in the engine bay area. Them vacuum leaks will drive you crazy when you are dialing in. Don't get all 'Hulky' but give a gentle squeeze or at least a good close look at the hoses connected to the sboot. Don't necessarily squeeze the sboot but a good inspection is called for. Look at the end of the intake runner boots, if they are crackled, replace. Any crunchy/crackly hose rubber should be replaced. Heck I would recommend replacing just about all the soft goods in there anyway but mostly anything that could allow a vac leak. Double check vac routing.
Lastly I say give the fuel circuit a good once over with an eye to what comes out of the tank. Fresh fuel filter, cut open the old one to see what was pulled into the element when it was last run. rust never sleeps and a half empty tank has a lot of rustable surface area inside. Here in the NW the air is wet most of the year. Things that sit in humid air start morphing and growing stuff.
If this garage it sat in had a halfway decent protection from the elements, you may just have a little diamond to polish. Good luck and definitely post before and after pix.
2 cents
Oh, and welcome. Look forward to seeing more posts.
So it all started when I wanted to get better gas mileage....
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Re: Restarting after 12 years in storage
The aprori fuel line replacement is something I accept but do not thrill to. The tank is implicitly unsafe unless proven otherwise. I'll only be running off of a jerrycan to start with after I test the fuel pump, but it would certainly be safer to do the fuel lines from the pump downhill.
I had not thought to take forensic readings on the cold engine, but at least checking the valve lash when cold is a good idea, even if I never end up having to use the data.
After I determine the general fitness of the engine (IF I can run it, run it long enough to get it warmed up while varying the rpm) then do a leak down test and compression test while things are still hot. Then dump the oil again and adjust the valves, then see what I get.
I'm planning on doing all of the hoses, regardless of whether they 'look' ok, as long as the appears that the engine is recoverable.
Thanks for the interest. There may be some long delays in update to this thread, as I have other commitments that have to integrate with this project.
I had not thought to take forensic readings on the cold engine, but at least checking the valve lash when cold is a good idea, even if I never end up having to use the data.
After I determine the general fitness of the engine (IF I can run it, run it long enough to get it warmed up while varying the rpm) then do a leak down test and compression test while things are still hot. Then dump the oil again and adjust the valves, then see what I get.
I'm planning on doing all of the hoses, regardless of whether they 'look' ok, as long as the appears that the engine is recoverable.
Thanks for the interest. There may be some long delays in update to this thread, as I have other commitments that have to integrate with this project.
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Re: Restarting after 12 years in storage
My daughter (5) is already attempting to make her memories in the bus.Amskeptic wrote:Looks like you have a very good starting point for a $12,000.00- $14,000.00 car when you are done.webwalker wrote:
we cleaned up Ferdinand the Bulli over the weekend and I found the inside in excellent shape, the frame in great shape, and the wheels even turn. (I'm not stupid enough to apply the brakes though.)
(did I mention life-long memories for your kid too?)
BTW, how do you come by the numbers you quote, Colin?
- Amskeptic
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Re: Restarting after 12 years in storage
I make 'em up!webwalker wrote:My daughter (5) is already attempting to make her memories in the bus.Amskeptic wrote:Looks like you have a very good starting point for a $12,000.00- $14,000.00 car when you are done.webwalker wrote:
we cleaned up Ferdinand the Bulli over the weekend and I found the inside in excellent shape, the frame in great shape, and the wheels even turn. (I'm not stupid enough to apply the brakes though.)
(did I mention life-long memories for your kid too?)
BTW, how do you come by the numbers you quote, Colin?
NADA Pricing Guide
1970 VW Bus Pricing
MSRP Low Average High
$2,495 $4,300 $7,950 $14,350
09/20/11:
............. $4,525 $8,350 $15,100
01/17/12:
............. $4,525 $8,850 $16,900
1978 VW Bus Pricing
MSRP Low Average High
$6,185 $4,550 $8,250 $15,400
**/**/10
............. $4,200 $7,550 $12,650
09/20/11:
............ $4,775 $8,650 $16,200
01/17/12
............ $4,775 $9,150 $18,100
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles