Well, Good Grief

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Bleyseng
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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by Bleyseng » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:04 pm

Latest post of the previous page:

Did you have it line bored?
Geoff
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Amskeptic
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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:03 am

Bleyseng wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:04 pm
Did you have it line bored?
Good Lord No. It is a brand new case. Have you ever align-bored a brand new case?

I should have it running in the bus by next weekend. Will break in the rings post-haste (seeing as it already has 60 minutes run-time, I am running out of time to seat the rings). If the engine does not vibrate or eat its camshaft gear (as evidenced in the strainer plate), then the only thing that has to plague me going forward are the exhaust valve seats . . . and a little crack (in the #4 was it?) in an exhaust valve guide boss. Good times. :pale:

Bus71 sent me two heads in the mail. One looks very useable, the other less so, but I will bring the useable one with me as back-up for some dusty power line trail emergency engine teardown.

We get to thank bloviating braggarts, who don't actually care about the work they perform as they happily take our money, for these totally avoidable obstacles against enjoying the intrinsic reliability of these once-great air-cooled road companions. No, I am only getting started, furthermore . . . . .
Colin

(but I did manage to successfully install a "LS 400" emblem on the right side of the trunk lid)

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BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .110,350 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,775 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . 72,350 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,478 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 64,425 miles

TrollFromDownBelow
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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by TrollFromDownBelow » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:29 am

The pic of that garage has shamed me into organizing my garage post-haste....
1976 VW Bus aka tripod
FI ...8 completely solid lifters.... now it's both kinda noisy and leaky, but she sure runs good!
hambone wrote: There are those out there with no other aim but to bunch panties. It's like arguing with a pretzel.
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sgkent
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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by sgkent » Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:41 am

Good Lord No. It is a brand new case. Have you ever align-bored a brand new case?
no but I would definitely have someone with a machinists straight edge and a high end bore gauge check the bores for straight and size. Most car mechanics are not aware how some manufacturers come up with the parts they sell. In some assembly lines when these cars were made, if a part was not fully within spec, but it could have been made to be within spec it got set aside and sold thru either the parts channels or to aftermarket. The same goes for surplus parts and obsolete parts. When the mechanic buys it he/she has no idea which history the part has so it should be looked over carefully.
Thank You -

Merlin The Wrench

Machine Work/Shop Recommendations: http://kentcomputer.com/77VW/machinework.pdf

Pointers on rebuilding an engine: http://kentcomputer.com/77VW/rebuilding_a_vw_engine.pdf

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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:36 pm

sgkent wrote:
Mon Apr 24, 2017 9:41 am
Good Lord No. It is a brand new case. Have you ever align-bored a brand new case?
no but I would definitely have someone with a machinists straight edge and a high end bore gauge check the bores for straight and size. Most car mechanics are not aware how some manufacturers come up with the parts they sell. In some assembly lines when these cars were made, if a part was not fully within spec, but it could have been made to be within spec it got set aside and sold thru either the parts channels or to aftermarket. The same goes for surplus parts and obsolete parts. When the mechanic buys it he/she has no idea which history the part has so it should be looked over carefully.



I bolted it up to spec and measured all bores. Looked reel strait-like. Just drove Chloe down the road for a maiden drive. Other than some annoying imbalance, ran well. We'll check the bearing patterns in about 80,000 miles.
Colin

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BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .110,350 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,775 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . 72,350 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,478 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 64,425 miles

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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by asiab3 » Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:09 pm

Ahhhhhh the inaugural "no bumper because the engine might have to come out" drive. That's bringing back good memories. :drunken:

Ring break-in and subsequent oil change uneventful?
Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy"
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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by wcfvw69 » Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:30 am

Amskeptic wrote:
Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:36 pm

Other than some annoying imbalance, ran well. We'll check the bearing patterns in about 80,000 miles.
Colin
It very disheartening when you try and build an engine correctly and are not happy with the outcome due to other folks involvement in the project. It's hard to believe a "professional" machines shop could do such a poor job.

At least you feel comfortable enough to drive it and hopefully it will provide the mileage you want out of it.
1970 Westfalia bus. Stock 1776 dual port type 1 engine. Restored German Solex 34-3. Restored 205Q distributor, restored to factory appearance engine.

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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by sgkent » Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:18 am

I bolted it up to spec and measured all bores. Looked reel strait-like.
If someone is really serious about holding someone's feet to the flame over the quality of major engine parts (case, crank, heads, rods, pistons etc. , one needs to involve a quality machinist - or the complaint is just more hot air and whining. Then the engine is just another slap together because these are the only parts we have engine like those that seem to come up in discussions around here.

Frankly - none of us can afford to buy the quality flat table, machinists straight edge, and bore gauge that is needed to check the things you are complaining about - unless one can afford to set up a shop in a defined location where one can store these things in a temperature controlled environment. One cannot even hold a micrometer in their hand without body temperature distorting the reading unless they are trained at doing it - there is an art on how to hold one. Doing this right is an either do it right, or accept whatever you get. When a good machinist measures the parts the results are tangible. Your new case could have been at the bottom of a pile in a hot container, with it unevenly torqued over a long time, causing the case to distort. It could have been rejected by VW as out of tolerance and sold on the aftermarket.

Bleyseng has this checking process dialed in - that is what the small inspection fee he pays to the shop is for. I do the same. My $1000 worth of gauges stored in my car garage where temps go up and down aren't good enough to trust to build an engine. They give me a pretty good idea what I have but I still have the final results done by the best quality machine shop I can find. Then I double check their work. I am probably more anal than JR is when it comes to the machine work quality I expect. You should have seen the Dino engine I remanufactured for Charlie as my masterpiece. It doesn't make sense to spend the money and time on rebuilding an engine to have to do it again because some small part was out of tolerance. AND - even checking everything there is still potential for failure - of course the same is true - one can use all parts unchecked, and with that there is still a chance of success.

example of flat table

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Bore gauge face - notice it is .0001" but actually effective to .00001" . The Ebay, HF gauges etc aren't that precise:

Image

Image

Rod measuring gauge:

Image
Thank You -

Merlin The Wrench

Machine Work/Shop Recommendations: http://kentcomputer.com/77VW/machinework.pdf

Pointers on rebuilding an engine: http://kentcomputer.com/77VW/rebuilding_a_vw_engine.pdf

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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by whc03grady » Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:31 am

sgkent wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:18 am
My $1000 worth of gauges stored in my car garage where temps go up and down aren't good enough to trust to build an engine. ...I still have the final results done by the best quality machine shop I can find. Then I double check their work.
How can you double check their work if your gauges aren't good enough to trust to build an engine in the first place? Honest question.
Ludwig--1974 Westfalia, 2.0L (GD035193), Solex 34PDSIT-2/3 carburetors.
Gertie--1971 Squareback, 1600cc with Bosch D-Jetronic fuel injection from a '72 (E brain).
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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by sgkent » Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:46 pm

whc03grady wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:31 am
sgkent wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:18 am
My $1000 worth of gauges stored in my car garage where temps go up and down aren't good enough to trust to build an engine. ...I still have the final results done by the best quality machine shop I can find. Then I double check their work.
How can you double check their work if your gauges aren't good enough to trust to build an engine in the first place? Honest question.
you'd be surprised how many shops have one idiot in them who is so far off it isn't even funny - so they will check against that. It also helps to know how close one is to factory specs to begin with before taking it to be worked on. You can check against those kinds of things, and only that. There are other subtle clues such as the scribe lines on rods, feel of the wrist pins in rod, solvent test on valves (you have to re-oil the stems when done), look for evidence where the straight edge sat, plasti-gauge etc. See how deep their cleaning marks are. I had a high end shop destroy the surface on my 1995 Acura Legend heads with a wire brush. Had to send them off to be surfaced as a result. some day we will have to have a discussion on horror stories of things professional shops have handed me as completed work. Colin's issue is that he got new parts to him. If that had been his own motor where he could have inspected each piece as it came apart and measured it, the gauges he had probably would have been reliable enough with the other clues to make a decision whether to do any machine work on the parts other than the rods. Being they were new parts to him one has to be extra careful. He went with a retailer who is known for good parts, but that retailer does not do the machine work themselves so they have to trust whomever they get the parts from etc. You know the saying - S rolls downhill....
Thank You -

Merlin The Wrench

Machine Work/Shop Recommendations: http://kentcomputer.com/77VW/machinework.pdf

Pointers on rebuilding an engine: http://kentcomputer.com/77VW/rebuilding_a_vw_engine.pdf

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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by asiab3 » Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:53 pm

I also think the "skill vs. results" graph is exponential. It's easy to slap something together, and very difficult to make something last. Sorta like playing guitar, or piano, or bassoon: it's easy to learn three chords and play a song. But it takes decades of attentive practice to master the craft.

One does not need to be a virtuoso to build a Type 1 engine, but it certainly doesn't hurt. :)
Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy"
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"I would not do this again on a short time frame, the country is just so vast and beautiful…" - Barb/Elwood

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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by sgkent » Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:31 pm

Robbie, that is so true. I built racing motors, VW and stock foreign / American motors, repaired the car when it broke, etc. One day I just wanted to learn the part of the business that is behind the curtain. I was lucky that Bill and Wally taught me what they did. I probably spent a month of my own time around the shop sweeping, cleaning things, sorting fastners etc. Finally Bill said, Ok I believe you really want to learn this stuff - I'll mentor you. It is no different than playing a woodwind. Sure one can read a book but it takes a mentor and lots of practice to get it right.

What is killing me is that we have a perfect storm going here. The people who knew the machine business have retired and a new crew is out there relearning what to do and what not to do. Give an example - I just got a flyer that RIMCO bought FAT Performance and moved to Orange county. So - will the newer RIMCO (as compared to the one Ed sold in 2009 - 2010) set their standards up to what I hear FAT Performance is, or will it be the other way around, or in-between? The good news is that if splits can bring up tp $300,000 these days, folks will step up and learn how to create quality T1 engines for awhile until VW prices tank from oversupply.
Thank You -

Merlin The Wrench

Machine Work/Shop Recommendations: http://kentcomputer.com/77VW/machinework.pdf

Pointers on rebuilding an engine: http://kentcomputer.com/77VW/rebuilding_a_vw_engine.pdf

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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by dingo » Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:02 pm

Thoe 300k Splits are only good for money laundering museum pieces....if they do actually run and putter around briefly, it will be no test of quality machine work. I was recently given a tour of a shop with several high-end Splits under meticulous restoration....when i pointed at a sloppily assembled engine in one early Split...the guy just shrugged and said ' it'll never be run anyways... so doesnt matter'
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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by Amskeptic » Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:59 am

whc03grady wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:31 am
sgkent wrote:
Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:18 am
My $1000 worth of gauges stored in my car garage where temps go up and down aren't good enough to trust to build an engine. ...I still have the final results done by the best quality machine shop I can find. Then I double check their work.
How can you double check their work if your gauges aren't good enough to trust to build an engine in the first place? Honest question.


You develop a sensitivity and intuition towards the machinist and the parts. You do, in the end, have to trust people you don't know.
I am not annoyed with my new Volkswagen Brazil crankcase and just will not waste my time speculating uselessly that it might have been distorted at the bottom of a crate on a hot day. I LOOKED at the case, and it had no evidence of such a life. I did my damn due diligence.
I am annoyed with all that blowhard hot air blah blah bullshit from the balancer. I AM annoyed with the machinist who told me all about how he does racing heads, never had a problem! yet my inserts were not fully seated and the exhaust guide boss was cracked. I am not worried about micrometers heating up in my hand, I am worried about the bloviating bullshit from lazy people who are happy to blab but refuse to pay attention to their work.

Chloe is in a great state of tune, starts right up, runs cool, oil change yesterday showed no evidence that I filed 52 cam gear teeth from a "0" to a "-1", but I sure as shit have a lousy balance from the guy who took $200.00 and wasted my time telling me that he had a difficult time centering the pressure plate ("where's the dowels?") while he ran it down with an airgun, how else would one of the centering tabs be bent to shit??. I am paying him a visit when I get back to Pensacola and will be strongly suggesting that this problem here needs a full refund. I do not want to see this engine get eaten by vibration. I did not buy a brand new crankcase only to have it fretted to death because an engine balancer is trying to learn the differences between pressure plate centering techniques on my engine, and chews off the crankshaft cheeks to counteract a pressure plate that was off by .009"
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .110,350 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,775 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . 72,350 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,478 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 64,425 miles

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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by sgkent » Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:30 pm

The engine builder has the ability to reject parts he/she doesn't approve of. Using a part sort of implies the engine builder approved the part, doesn't it?
Thank You -

Merlin The Wrench

Machine Work/Shop Recommendations: http://kentcomputer.com/77VW/machinework.pdf

Pointers on rebuilding an engine: http://kentcomputer.com/77VW/rebuilding_a_vw_engine.pdf

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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by Amskeptic » Mon May 01, 2017 10:19 am

sgkent wrote:
Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:30 pm
The engine builder has the ability to reject parts he/she doesn't approve of. Using a part sort of implies the engine builder approved the part, doesn't it?


Yes. There is a fine line between accepting the professional bona-fides of a professional machinist and asking one question too insulting. I stay clear of the insulting micromanaging questions . . . apparently to my detriment. Off to converse with the engine balancer in my nice new Lexus with the imbalanced driveshaft barely contained by two hose clamps. Such is my imbalanced life.

Meanwhile, no good deed goes unpunished. I offered to clean a Beetle's speedometer to a nice new crisp appearance, and it started a little woozy needle flipping at slow speeds. I did a hapless lubrication of the cable-speedometer interface and it screamed on the test drive. Then the cable snapped at the dust cap.

Image


New speedometer cable "that'll take care of the needle jumping" did not cure the speedometer needle jumping and a snapping noise in the head unit told me I best disassemble it.

Image


Strangely enough, the speedometer head seized up solid as I was testing it with the left wheel up off the ground. It very nearly yanked the speedometer out of my hand. Disassembled down to component parts and had to use the old cable and a pair of vise grips to work the drum free of its bearings.

Image


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Once freed and greased, the speedometer needle is now smooth as silk, but the speedometer assembly does not want to be taken apart again, that rolled edge between the glass retainer and the speedometer body looks like a beaver tried to crimp it.

Image


Image


This is the very nicest 1970 VW Beetle in the country, both in looks and driving:

Image


Image
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .110,350 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,775 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . 72,350 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,478 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 64,425 miles

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