Well, Good Grief

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asiab3
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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by asiab3 » Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:40 am

Latest post of the previous page:

For what it's worth, I had a mediocre balance by SoCal's finest shops two years ago. Post Colorado, I had a HORRIFIC balance, after aligning all the dots. I shoved the generator one way, loosened the strap a little, shoved again, and snugged up the strap. As of right now, balance is better than it was before, though the generator strap is not very tight. What's the new engine like with the belt off?

Robbie
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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by sgkent » Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:09 am

each component - the crankshaft, flywheel, pressure plate should have a mark showing how to align them. Fans are normally done separately. Harmonic oscillations in the fan belt can feel like an out of balance motor.

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Machine Work/Shop Recommendations: http://kentcomputer.com/77VW/machinework.pdf

Pointers on rebuilding an engine: http://kentcomputer.com/77VW/rebuilding_a_vw_engine.pdf

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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:41 am

hambone wrote:
Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:31 pm
Sorry to hear. Can you live with it?
My former engine was built the same way by a local shop, deep vibration at certain RPMs. Got about 40k miles before it became terrible.
It is not acceptable though, it will drive you crazy. Is the balancer in your town? Jet-setting lifestyle. Make him hear this engine.

Hey Hammie,
I am doing a pressure plate re-orientation this weekend, I will let you know if I can live with it. The deep down answer is "no, I will not accept that sort of engine torture day after day of driving mile after mile."
Colin
*
*
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .110,350 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,775 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 74,075 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,478 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 67,233 miles

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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:44 am

asiab3 wrote:
Wed Apr 12, 2017 12:40 am
For what it's worth, I had a mediocre balance by SoCal's finest shops two years ago. Post Colorado, I had a HORRIFIC balance, after aligning all the dots. I shoved the generator one way, loosened the strap a little, shoved again, and snugged up the strap. As of right now, balance is better than it was before, though the generator strap is not very tight. What's the new engine like with the belt off?

Robbie


I can feel the difference between a fan/generator imbalance and a crankshaft imbalance based on frequency. This is definitely in the crankshaft rpm area.

Chloe had a fan imbalance in the beginning. I got rid of it with a different fan and a correct cast iron generator pulley.
Colin
*
*
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .110,350 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,775 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 74,075 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,478 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 67,233 miles

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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by sgkent » Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:56 am

Colin - did they paint or punch the flywheel and pressure plate so they would assemble the same?

Also - if the pressure plate is the diaphragm style it is pretty much what you see you get. However, if it is the individual spring style with 3 fingers then the fingers have to be exactly the same height when loaded or it will vibrate a significant amount.

All that said, you may be feeling that warpness in the crankshaft that was leaving you shiny marks, If so, no amount of balancing will get rid of it. When a crankshaft is put on vee blocks there should be no run out at the center.
Thank You -

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Machine Work/Shop Recommendations: http://kentcomputer.com/77VW/machinework.pdf

Pointers on rebuilding an engine: http://kentcomputer.com/77VW/rebuilding_a_vw_engine.pdf

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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by Amskeptic » Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:00 am

sgkent wrote:
Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:56 am
Colin - did they paint or punch the flywheel and pressure plate so they would assemble the same?


Yes, of course. That was the whole reason for the balance job, to have match marks between the new flywheel and the crankshaft, and the pressure plate and flywheel. It is a diaphragm style pressure plate.
sgkent wrote:
Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:56 am
All that said, you may be feeling that warpness in the crankshaft that was leaving you shiny marks, If so, no amount of balancing will get rid of it. When a crankshaft is put on vee blocks there should be no run out at the center.


Well, I was nonplussed to hear the guy say, "you did not ask me to check runout." Is he serious? What balancer on Earth would not check the stupid runout before balancing? I did read .00075 at the #2 main journal, but the crank was already in the case with the captive #3 bearing and #1 bearing in place.
Phooey,
Colin
*
*
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .110,350 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,775 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 74,075 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,478 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 67,233 miles

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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by sgkent » Thu Apr 13, 2017 12:22 pm

Well, I was nonplussed to hear the guy say, "you did not ask me to check runout."
couldn't agree with you more. What person balancing anything would not first look for runout. I had a tire hop once. Turned out to be a new rim that was not machined correctly. Had about 3/4" hop. It feels awful to pay someone for a service, and then have to point out to them how to do their job. Frankly put, many Americans can no longer work or drive - but they are good about taxing someone else to solve their problems - from Wall Street on down. If you think about it, .0007" is really .0014 because it is .0007" in each direction.

If you make it to California and it still feels out of balance, have a spare crank and bearings ready to go. We'll pull it apart. I have the tools and press to remove the gears etc. Have CPAP no snore...
Thank You -

Merlin The Wrench

Machine Work/Shop Recommendations: http://kentcomputer.com/77VW/machinework.pdf

Pointers on rebuilding an engine: http://kentcomputer.com/77VW/rebuilding_a_vw_engine.pdf

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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by hambone » Fri Apr 14, 2017 12:50 pm

Colin I have a VW crankshaft that you are welcome to. Of course it needs inspection and balancing...
It is boxed up all foamy safe, let me know, pay the postage and it's yours.
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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:11 pm

hambone wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2017 12:50 pm
Colin I have a VW crankshaft that you are welcome to. Of course it needs inspection and balancing...
It is boxed up all foamy safe, let me know, pay the postage and it's yours.
Y'aller too kind. Save them, though. We might be in need. I have a set of heads coming from Bus71 that may be pressed into service as emergency spares because I can do heads in a day if necessary.

Today's test stand run was actually acceptable. Vibration is less after the pressure plate centering, and the oil draindown inspection says that the camshaft has miraculously "burnished" its sorry collection of filed teeth into some semblance of oil-filmed mesh. I will see if I can put up a truncated Engine Movie once I attempt to upload it to stingy Photobucket.

Engine sounds lovely . . . :flower:
*
*
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .110,350 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,775 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 74,075 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,478 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 67,233 miles

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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by vwlover77 » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:29 am

What a nightmare! Do the Chevy and Ford guys have to deal with this level of ineptitude? I guess not, for a lot of different reasons.....
Don

---------------------------
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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by Amskeptic » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:58 am

vwlover77 wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:29 am
What a nightmare! Do the Chevy and Ford guys have to deal with this level of ineptitude? I guess not, for a lot of different reasons.....


a) C&D&Mopar guys have been working with cast iron all their lives and STILL don't have knowledge/appreciation of aluminum alloy

b) lack of factory support has divided many VW machinists into Islands Unto Themselves

c) our diminishing numbers are a demoralizing force against top quality work for those who do not have a strong customer base

d) I think there is ineptitude in the servicers of other makes, we just don't have a front row seat to it
Colinitude
*
*
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .110,350 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,775 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 74,075 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,478 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 67,233 miles

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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by sgkent » Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:48 pm

40 -50 year old car. Original parts scarce - if made to factory specs then made on 40 -50 year old dies using 60 - 80 year old equipment. Machine shops do what they do for a living. To clean, prep, and line bore a case, check lifter bores, cylinder decks etc - one has am afternoon in it - and that should be at $150 - $200 an hour. 4 to 5 Hours at that rate comes to $800 - $1000. A new AS 41 DP case is under $1000. Who wins? The replacement case that has been sitting in a warehouse in Mexico for 8 - 10 years. The next question is why is it sitting on the shelf? Did a tech at the factory mark it as grade B when it was made - not good enough to build a new factory engine - yet not bad enough to smelt back down? Many of those parts were sent to the warehouse KNOWING that that they did not meet factory grade A specs, but that a dealer, or the aftermarket machinist could correct the small defects. Consumer buys it, doesn't know how to check it and they get burned. A guy like me who worked in a good machine shop in the late 1970's and early 1980's knows what to look for - problem is that you won't pay a guy like me $150 an hour to teach someone what to look for. Instead I spent my last working years working for someone who didn't bounce checks to me, and who gave me a defined benefit retirement. It isn't a VW only thing. All the car shops run into it. The existing machine shops run into it too. That is why I suggested finding a competent machine shop near you. Let them look over all the material parts and pay them their $125 an hour rate to do that. If you bring a six pack of diet pepsi or ginger ale etc with you, a pizza etc once in awhile they will get to know you well enough to check the parts for free and only bill you when the part needs work,
Thank You -

Merlin The Wrench

Machine Work/Shop Recommendations: http://kentcomputer.com/77VW/machinework.pdf

Pointers on rebuilding an engine: http://kentcomputer.com/77VW/rebuilding_a_vw_engine.pdf

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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by Amskeptic » Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:19 pm

sgkent wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:48 pm
40 -50 year old car. Original parts scarce - if made to factory specs then made on 40 -50 year old dies using 60 - 80 year old equipment. Machine shops do what they do for a living. To clean, prep, and line bore a case, check lifter bores, cylinder decks etc - one has am afternoon in it - and that should be at $150 - $200 an hour. 4 to 5 Hours at that rate comes to $800 - $1000. A new AS 41 DP case is under $1000. Who wins? The replacement case that has been sitting in a warehouse in Mexico for 8 - 10 years. The next question is why is it sitting on the shelf? Did a tech at the factory mark it as grade B when it was made - not good enough to build a new factory engine - yet not bad enough to smelt back down? Many of those parts were sent to the warehouse KNOWING that that they did not meet factory grade A specs, but that a dealer, or the aftermarket machinist could correct the small defects. Consumer buys it, doesn't know how to check it and they get burned. A guy like me who worked in a good machine shop in the late 1970's and early 1980's knows what to look for - problem is that you won't pay a guy like me $150 an hour to teach someone what to look for. Instead I spent my last working years working for someone who didn't bounce checks to me, and who gave me a defined benefit retirement. It isn't a VW only thing. All the car shops run into it. The existing machine shops run into it too. That is why I suggested finding a competent machine shop near you. Let them look over all the material parts and pay them their $125 an hour rate to do that. If you bring a six pack of diet pepsi or ginger ale etc with you, a pizza etc once in awhile they will get to know you well enough to check the parts for free and only bill you when the part needs work,


All very good points.

Now then, what did I miss on Chloe's new crankcase . . . . . ?
*
*
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .110,350 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,775 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 74,075 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,478 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 67,233 miles

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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by Bleyseng » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:04 pm

Did you have it line bored?
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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:03 am

Bleyseng wrote:
Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:04 pm
Did you have it line bored?
Good Lord No. It is a brand new case. Have you ever align-bored a brand new case?

I should have it running in the bus by next weekend. Will break in the rings post-haste (seeing as it already has 60 minutes run-time, I am running out of time to seat the rings). If the engine does not vibrate or eat its camshaft gear (as evidenced in the strainer plate), then the only thing that has to plague me going forward are the exhaust valve seats . . . and a little crack (in the #4 was it?) in an exhaust valve guide boss. Good times. :pale:

Bus71 sent me two heads in the mail. One looks very useable, the other less so, but I will bring the useable one with me as back-up for some dusty power line trail emergency engine teardown.

We get to thank bloviating braggarts, who don't actually care about the work they perform as they happily take our money, for these totally avoidable obstacles against enjoying the intrinsic reliability of these once-great air-cooled road companions. No, I am only getting started, furthermore . . . . .
Colin

(but I did manage to successfully install a "LS 400" emblem on the right side of the trunk lid)

Image
*
*
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .110,350 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,775 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 74,075 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,478 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 67,233 miles

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Re: Well, Good Grief

Post by TrollFromDownBelow » Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:29 am

The pic of that garage has shamed me into organizing my garage post-haste....
1976 VW Bus aka tripod
FI ...8 completely solid lifters.... now it's both kinda noisy and leaky, but she sure runs good!
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