1978 Westfalia - Auxiliary Air Regulator (AAR)

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MountainPrana
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Re: 1978 Westfalia - Auxiliary Air Regulator (AAR)

Post by MountainPrana » Fri Aug 12, 2016 8:14 pm

Latest post of the previous page:

Amskeptic wrote:I know, I know, I know, ask me pleeeeze.

Um, um well this small air flow when warm does not create a vacuum leak, because, um, because it doesn't.
Colin
(already metered air)
asiab3 wrote:Thanks, MountainPrana.

Robbie
=D> bhahahahaha, ya'll crack me up. So as long as there is a big enough difference between open and closed so that it will slow the idle when warm and closed is the main concern right? It's basically a mini throttle controlled by it's own little heater instead of my foot, eh?

Tim still hunting for my idle issues

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Amskeptic
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Re: 1978 Westfalia - Auxiliary Air Regulator (AAR)

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Aug 12, 2016 9:12 pm

MountainPrana wrote:[So as long as there is a big enough difference between open and closed so that it will slow the idle when warm and closed is the main concern right?
You need compression! Desperately! I need to clean my fuel tank! Desperately!
See? We're all at it.
ColinInAForest
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 93,996 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,113 miles

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MountainPrana
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Re: 1978 Westfalia - Auxiliary Air Regulator (AAR)

Post by MountainPrana » Fri Aug 12, 2016 9:55 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
MountainPrana wrote:[So as long as there is a big enough difference between open and closed so that it will slow the idle when warm and closed is the main concern right?
You need compression! Desperately! I need to clean my fuel tank! Desperately!
See? We're all at it.
ColinInAForest
I fixed my compression tester! the little o ring didn't create a good seal where the hose plugged into the gauge. Is it possible that the compression could have improved from putting several hundred miles on her since we hung out? Because when I tested the compression cold the other day after I updated you, I got 1=90, 2=95, 3=90, 4=90. Also, now don't get mad... remember you mentioned some article by a boston dude or something, swore me off of it you did. Well I went and found it. There were two things that I tried different this time, just to try something different you know.
1. I loaded the lifters with oil and bled all the air out of them so that they were rock solid
2. I adjusted one cylinder and didn't worry about the valves springs opening. Yeah they still did. This time however I just went away for 15 minutes and let it sit there at TDC for that cylinder. Then after the time had passed I went back and did another compression test. So this ended up taking like 2 hours to do all 4 cylinders, but for whatever reason they must have self adjusted this time either (maybe the 3rd time having them out and cleaning them helped) because each time I did a compression test it was the same as the cold test 90, 95, 90 and 90.

So I was pretty elated to say the least, was going to add the information and sources to the "Solid Hydraulic Lifter" thread on here. But... she is running like crap, won't hardly start, won't idle. I checked the timing after the valves and it checked out alright. The last few days I have gotten her running and idling occasionally but it seems pretty random which has me :scratch:. maybe the lifters are not self adjusting very well? Because the thing is, you see I've been spending the last several weeks at this for 3 to 4 hours a day before Molly gets home from work (She's got the longer day and is amazing that she keeps her spirits up so well!) and on several occasions have felt like I am going crazy, so I'll return the valve adjustment to 0 or .006 and gently ever so gingerly idle her and drive her about a mile on the dirt roads here and she idles and runs wonderfully. So I don't get it, the compression is the same but what would make the running so much different with 1.5 turns of preload. It's enough to make a grown man cry.

The other development is that I had a birthday at the beginning of the month and my Dad said he would buy the camper special kit for me. So I have been meaning to ask you what your thoughts are on that idea? You know that is my long term dream for this motor... and I am a strong believer in second opinions, yours in particular I hold in high regard.

Either way, I'd love to understand what is happening with these lifters because I feel like that will help the mechanic in me grow. And it's driving me crazy that I don't seem to be able to solve this problem.

Sorry, this is getting way off topic!

Tim I thought your tank was getting better slowly?

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Amskeptic
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Re: 1978 Westfalia - Auxiliary Air Regulator (AAR)

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Aug 12, 2016 10:03 pm

MountainPrana wrote:
Amskeptic wrote:
MountainPrana wrote:[So as long as there is a big enough difference between open and closed so that it will slow the idle when warm and closed is the main concern right?
You need compression! Desperately! I need to clean my fuel tank! Desperately!
See? We're all at it.
ColinInAForest
I fixed my compression tester! the little o ring didn't create a good seal where the hose plugged into the gauge. Is it possible that the compression could have improved from putting several hundred miles on her since we hung out? Because when I tested the compression cold the other day after I updated you, I got 1=90, 2=95, 3=90, 4=90. Also, now don't get mad... remember you mentioned some article by a boston dude or something, swore me off of it you did. Well I went and found it. There were two things that I tried different this time, just to try something different you know.
1. I loaded the lifters with oil and bled all the air out of them so that they were rock solid
2. I adjusted one cylinder and didn't worry about the valves springs opening. Yeah they still did. This time however I just went away for 15 minutes and let it sit there at TDC for that cylinder. Then after the time had passed I went back and did another compression test. So this ended up taking like 2 hours to do all 4 cylinders, but for whatever reason they must have self adjusted this time either (maybe the 3rd time having them out and cleaning them helped) because each time I did a compression test it was the same as the cold test 90, 95, 90 and 90.

So I was pretty elated to say the least, was going to add the information and sources to the "Solid Hydraulic Lifter" thread on here. But... she is running like crap, won't hardly start, won't idle. I checked the timing after the valves and it checked out alright. The last few days I have gotten her running and idling occasionally but it seems pretty random which has me :scratch:. maybe the lifters are not self adjusting very well? Because the thing is, you see I've been spending the last several weeks at this for 3 to 4 hours a day before Molly gets home from work (She's got the longer day and is amazing that she keeps her spirits up so well!) and on several occasions have felt like I am going crazy, so I'll return the valve adjustment to 0 or .006 and gently ever so gingerly idle her and drive her about a mile on the dirt roads here and she idles and runs wonderfully. So I don't get it, the compression is the same but what would make the running so much different with 1.5 turns of preload. It's enough to make a grown man cry.

The other development is that I had a birthday at the beginning of the month and my Dad said he would buy the camper special kit for me. So I have been meaning to ask you what your thoughts are on that idea? You know that is my long term dream for this motor... and I am a strong believer in second opinions, yours in particular I hold in high regard.

Either way, I'd love to understand what is happening with these lifters because I feel like that will help the mechanic in me grow. And it's driving me crazy that I don't seem to be able to solve this problem.

Sorry, this is getting way off topic!

Tim I thought your tank was getting better slowly?
You show great, great tenacity. You have a solid grasp of the physics. The damn lifters are not bleeding down correctly. If you can solve that issue, you would have an engine that, in your words, "idles and runs wonderfully".

A Camper Special kit is a great and beautiful gift. Just make sure that it does NOT have some stupid crazy performance camshaft that gives you no vacuum at idle. Make sure you communicate that you do a lot of high elevation driving.
I think you could build a very fine engine, almost as good as Molly's pizza . . .
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 93,996 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,113 miles

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Bleyseng
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Re: 1978 Westfalia - Auxiliary Air Regulator (AAR)

Post by Bleyseng » Sat Aug 13, 2016 7:29 am

I like the cam provided in the Camper Special kit as it does increase the HP of the engine with slightly less vacuum at idle. I don't have a idle problem nor do I drive around at idle.......
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

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MountainPrana
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Re: 1978 Westfalia - Auxiliary Air Regulator (AAR)

Post by MountainPrana » Sat Aug 13, 2016 6:13 pm

Bleyseng wrote:I like the cam provided in the Camper Special kit as it does increase the HP of the engine...
So I'm actually finding that I am super nervous about making the decision, wondering how the application will work with an 82 Westy. I made a bad choice a few years back with a motor and don't want to repeat the grief. I am open to any thoughts on it.

Tim trying to learn from the past

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Re: 1978 Westfalia - Auxiliary Air Regulator (AAR)

Post by asiab3 » Sat Aug 13, 2016 8:13 pm

I am more satisfied by an engine that starts quickly, stabilizes at a fast idle quickly, and purrs at operating temp smoothly than I ever am with an engine that pulls well past 5,000 RPM in a bus.

The only negative I see in a stock engine build is how many people ask you dumb shit like "did that make it all the way from California?" and "how many times did you rebuild the engine on this trip?" Now, those are much more pleasant to answer than a rear-ender from someone behind you in a hurry that doesn't understand "performance cam performance anxiety." (Plus, I like the smug smile I get to sport soon after slipping out of the service station after reminding the gawkers that I get better fuel economy than their Ford Explosion.)

When building an engine, we must ask ourselves what the goal is, what the best way to achieve that goal is, and what decisions have to be made to get there. Tell us about your goals, Tim, and we can help you chose components and systems.

Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
100k miles with me.
279k miles on Earth.

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Re: 1978 Westfalia - Auxiliary Air Regulator (AAR)

Post by SlowLane » Sat Aug 13, 2016 9:59 pm

MountainPrana wrote: so I'll return the valve adjustment to 0 or .006 and gently ever so gingerly idle her and drive her about a mile on the dirt roads here and she idles and runs wonderfully. So I don't get it, the compression is the same but what would make the running so much different with 1.5 turns of preload. It's enough to make a grown man cry.
The commonly-accepted pre-load of 1.5 turns is, I think, largely due to Richard Atwell's (aka ratwell) influence on the hobby.

Turns out that some manuals said to use 2 full turns, some said use 1. Ratwell analyzed the crap out of the lifters he had on hand and declared that he was going to recommend 1.5 turns.

So it might be possible that your lifters would be happy at 1, or 0.5, or 2 turns. You've established that it seems happy at 0 lash, but that runs the risk of dislodging the retaining circlips in the lifters. Maybe try 1 turn, or even 1/2 turn.

Good luck
'81 Canadian Westfalia (2.0L, manual), now Californiated

"Wisdom comes from experience. Experience is often a result of lack of wisdom."
- Terry Pratchett

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Re: 1978 Westfalia - Auxiliary Air Regulator (AAR)

Post by Bleyseng » Sun Aug 14, 2016 5:56 am

asiab3 wrote:I am more satisfied by an engine that starts quickly, stabilizes at a fast idle quickly, and purrs at operating temp smoothly than I ever am with an engine that pulls well past 5,000 RPM in a bus.


When building an engine, we must ask ourselves what the goal is, what the best way to achieve that goal is, and what decisions have to be made to get there. Tell us about your goals, Tim, and we can help you chose components and systems.

Robbie
A Camper Special idles just fine, starts quickly with a stable idle but it needs to be set at 1050rpms. The torque of the engine is increase to 120+ ft lbs along with 100hp which makes driving a bit easier at freeway speeds, on hills etc and pulls to 5000rpms if you need it instead of choking off at 4000rpms which the stock bus hydro cam does. All this with also cooler head temps....
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

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Re: 1978 Westfalia - Auxiliary Air Regulator (AAR)

Post by lilpig88 » Mon Aug 15, 2016 8:30 pm

I read and researched and read and debated and read some more about the camper special idea, non-stock camshaft, bigger valves and all that you're more than likely debating at the moment. At the time I was living in Montana and, similar to you (I'm guessing) wondered how it would all push my bus around at elevation, over passes and beyond. I spent what seemed like forever scouring the results (perceptions) of others with similar combinations...and in the end I'm happy with what I have - I went with the camper special-ish components mostly. It drive well, has decent low end torque and idles fine. It's taken me all over the western US and Canada and I enjoy how it drives. Colin drove it this year and seemed to be happy with it (or maybe he was just being kind). That said, a stock motor will do the same just as well.
If I had to do it again, I'd probably have the same debate. A well-built motor is more important than anything and the stock vw engine is a thing of beauty. Driving Naranja Westy allows a person to experience such beauty...

Maybe find another case to build a non-stock motor and keep troubleshooting your current motor...then you can have both!

-Andrew

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Re: 1978 Westfalia - Auxiliary Air Regulator (AAR)

Post by MountainPrana » Mon Aug 15, 2016 8:48 pm

asiab3 wrote: When building an engine, we must ask ourselves what the goal is, what the best way to achieve that goal is, and what decisions have to be made to get there. Tell us about your goals, Tim, and we can help you chose components and systems.
Robbie
Thanks Robbie, This is sage wisdom and I will have to do some soul searching to come up with the answers. I have been drawn towards the camper special for reasons unbeknownst to me. Similar to feeling the pull to walk the length of Florida, From Mexico to Canada and the length of Arizona. I don't always know why I do what I do but I try to do it to the best of my ability. I will think about what my goal is, it is good advice. I hope to meet you out there on the road someday.
lilpig88 wrote: Maybe find another case to build a non-stock motor and keep troubleshooting your current motor...then you can have both!
-Andrew
I am pretty stubborn and definitely still trying to get my current motor to behave sensibly! Having both isn't such a bad idea really. Thanks for adding your perceptions, it really does mean a lot to me.

Tim

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Re: 1978 Westfalia - Auxiliary Air Regulator (AAR)

Post by MountainPrana » Mon Aug 15, 2016 8:58 pm

Feeling guilty cause I think we are supposed to be talking about this: Re: AAR Check/Adjust update 12-10

Timmy tangent

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Re: 1978 Westfalia - Auxiliary Air Regulator (AAR)

Post by asiab3 » Mon Aug 15, 2016 9:39 pm

Well I would also like to add: if you are considering spending a lot of money on something, experience it for free first. If you want to feel a well-dialed-in stock Type 1 bus you're welcome to mine when/if I'm in your area. But try to put some feelers out locally for those with Type 4 buses when they come through your area. I've never met a fellow VW owner who wouldn't let another VW owner at least ride shotgun for an demonstrative ride showing off the power and smoothness of their particular systems.... And if they decline? Well maybe they're still searching for that power and smoothness!

I know my life was changed the first time I drove a dialed-in Volkswagen, and I knew I'd never go back to aftermarket anything after that morning.

Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
100k miles with me.
279k miles on Earth.

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Re: 1978 Westfalia - Auxiliary Air Regulator (AAR)

Post by Bleyseng » Mon Aug 15, 2016 10:33 pm

Well, if you are in the Seattle area you can drive mine around. The thing about the Camper Special kit is it's kit with all new or refurbished parts complete so you won't have mismatched parts if you try to source them from several different places, it's all in the kit.
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

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Re: 1978 Westfalia - Auxiliary Air Regulator (AAR)

Post by MountainPrana » Tue Aug 16, 2016 5:59 am

Bleyseng wrote:Well, if you are in the Seattle area you can drive mine around. The thing about the Camper Special kit is it's kit with all new or refurbished parts complete so you won't have mismatched parts if you try to source them from several different places, it's all in the kit.
Thanks for the offer Geoff! Molly and I are here in WY till mid October and then will probably be in the southern states for the winter. Hoping to hike the Hayduke Route this spring in southern UT. It'll be our toughest hike yet at around 800 miles and mostly off trail navigation through the desert canyons region.

Tim

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Re: 1978 Westfalia - Auxiliary Air Regulator (AAR)

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Aug 19, 2016 8:53 pm

MountainPrana wrote:
Bleyseng wrote:Well, if you are in the Seattle area you can drive mine around. The thing about the Camper Special kit is it's kit with all new or refurbished parts complete so you won't have mismatched parts if you try to source them from several different places, it's all in the kit.
Thanks for the offer Geoff! Molly and I are here in WY till mid October and then will probably be in the southern states for the winter. Hoping to hike the Hayduke Route this spring in southern UT. It'll be our toughest hike yet at around 800 miles and mostly off trail navigation through the desert canyons region.

Tim
This thread has 6,000 visits from people trying to get their engines running right. It is a "technical thread" in a "Technical Forum".
"This spring" is going to be years in the past soon enough . . . while the thread soldiers on.
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 93,996 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,113 miles

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