1972 Westfalia - No start - $1.29 OSH fix (UPDATE: SUCCESS!)

vistacruzer · Post by **vistacruzer** » Sun May 17, 2009 1:26 pm

pull the fuel line off the tee and aim it at a can .. sound like fuel is not getting to the carbs in enough volume.. that my be why it starts the fist time after setting

vistacruzer · Post by **vistacruzer** » Sun May 17, 2009 1:27 pm

then turn motor over..

RSorak 71Westy · Post by **RSorak 71Westy** » Sun May 17, 2009 1:48 pm

All a motor needs to start is spark at the right time and fuel, assuming it's mechanically good. Since you just messed with the fuel supply, that's probably where the problem is.....rather than the ign or spark....Plus the fact that it's trying to start implies that spark is happening, and lack of fuel is the problem.

covelo · Post by **covelo** » Sun May 17, 2009 2:58 pm

So I tested fuel delivery and the local urologist would have been proud of the quality of the flow into my empty dog food can. Lots of fuel going into the carbs for sure. I also checked that electricity reaches my Petronix and there seems to be nothing wrong with the distributor and its cap. Removing one or both of the vacuum hoses from the distributor makes no difference either. Once I have some charge in the battery I'll try starting with a video camera handy so you all can hear what it tries to do. At some point we'll figure it out. I wish Colin was somewhere near the Bay Area.

vdubyah73 · Post by **vdubyah73** » Sun May 17, 2009 4:04 pm

Retorque the manifolds.

dingo · Post by **dingo** » Sun May 17, 2009 8:03 pm

covelo wrote:Will do. Thanks!

It seems like it starts only on the first try after having been left alone for a while but then dies immediately. .

...maybe your getting TOO MUCH fuel ? (just extrapolating from above sentence) stuck neeedle valve ? do you smell fuel ?

covelo · Post by **covelo** » Sun May 17, 2009 9:04 pm

No, I was worried about that too. But I don't smell fuel and it doesn't sound like it's flooding. That would be the next thing to check though. We just came back from a little beach fun in Santa Cruz and it's too dark to mess with tonight but tomorrow I'll post a video of how it sounds when it tries to start up.

covelo · Post by **covelo** » Mon May 18, 2009 11:52 am

Here is a video of an attempted start this morning. I hope this helps the troubleshooting process. Thanks for all your help!

Youtube video

RSorak 71Westy · Post by **RSorak 71Westy** » Mon May 18, 2009 12:22 pm

When you pump the carbs they should shoot a shot of fuel into the engine. Assuming they are full of fuel and the accelerator pumps are working....Remove the air filter and look down the carb throat and see if they are squirting when pumped. The engine should start and run for a second like it 1st does in the video, every time you pump it twice and try to start it.

It their a chance you tweaked the idle speed down, too low to run....Have you tried to start it and give some gas immediately and see if it will run above idle speed?

Based on your video, it's either no gas or a massive vacuum leak.

vdubyah73 · Post by **vdubyah73** » Mon May 18, 2009 2:09 pm

I'll bet it's a vacuum leak. the carbs are getting gas because it will fire. You have spark, again because it will fire. check all the vacuum hoses on the manifolds and check the torque on the manifold to head nuts as well as the carb to manifold nuts.

covelo · Post by **covelo** » Mon May 18, 2009 8:17 pm

So I plugged up the brake booster outlet from below the bus and tightened all the manifold and carburator nuts. (One manifold nut was slightly loose). Still no luck. The next step is to take the carburators off to check them (very difficult to work on them in the 1972 engine bay). I hit them with the handle of a screw driver to dislodge any stuck valves inside. I also disconnected and reconnected the idle cutoff things and the choke heaters. They all click and seem to work.

The complete lack of even bad running makes me wonder if it couldn't be something electrical after all. Also easier to mess up a wire or fry something while trying to connect the fuel hoses in the front of the engine bay. But it seems like this almost running in the video could not happen without a spark. Is it possible that the engine sparks and then immediately shorts out on something?

Maybe I'll do a basic tune-up first. Something may show up when I try to do that.

airkooledchris · Post by **airkooledchris** » Tue May 19, 2009 10:29 am

hard to say, but I wouldn't rule out something seemingly unrelated to the changes you were making as the possible cause of this non-starting issue...

if you can remember where you left off in case you need to get back there, see if cranking some advanced timing into it helps at all. to me, if I were just going off of the sound and not factoring in the details you've listed in this thread, id say the timing was way off. It sounds like it wants to run but something is too out of whack to allow it to fire when it should.

thats my stab in the dark anyway.

also that fan shields gotta go. I think it would hang onto stuff and force it against the fan like that moreso than keep stuff out of it. I can just imagine a rag that would otherwise be thrown to the side, instead getting stuck in the broken bits of the plastic cover and getting stuck right there. plus you supposedly get like 5% better cooling without it, which is a pointless unmeasureable amount im sure, but made me feel better not ordering another one.

germansupplyscott · Post by **germansupplyscott** » Thu May 21, 2009 3:30 pm

Oregon72 wrote:I recently used the RTV (on Colin's recommendation) to revitalize my brake booster elbow and it looks quite a bit better now. I need to do my central idle tube elbows too though

Before (dried and cracking)

for anyone who has a dual carbed bus, we have all these balance pipe elbows new. the late one for '74 is new production (and fairly readily available at any decent VW supplier), the other two are genuine VW NOS. as far as i know we are the only VW supplier who has these.

http://www.germansupply.com/xcart/custo ... ctid=17672

covelo · Post by **covelo** » Thu May 21, 2009 4:11 pm

Thanks! The one on my right side is actually pretty good. The single elbow on the left is marginal (a little surface cracking) so I may need a new one on that side.

I haven't had time to work on the bus this week. It'll probably have to wait until after M-day.

covelo · Post by **covelo** » Mon May 25, 2009 11:51 am

Tried a few more things this morning. Still no luck. Here's what I did:

Checked that fuel squirts into the carbs when activating the throttle. Both carbs get a healthy squirt (the right one may be getting a little more than the left, but hard to see with mirror and flashlight blocking each other.

Checked for spark at the distributor cap central wire and at one of the spark plugs. Not a bright blue spark, but a whitish/yellowish spark. Seems like it should at least try to run with a weak spark.

Hooked up the jumper cables to the Toyota truck just to make sure the battery wasn't run down too much to get a decent start. No difference.

Tried starting both completely cold with both chokes closed and with both chokes completely open after warming up the choke elements for a bit. No difference.

Confirmed adequate fuel flow at both carbs with dog food can.

Tried again to find vacuum leaks. I think I'm going to duct tape the manifold vacuum outlets next just to make sure I didn't miss some invisible hole in the steel vacuum pipe that runs along the FRONT of the engine.

If anything, it is now starting worse than it did in the video. I only got a little responsiveness from the engine once or twice in about 20-25 tries.

Finally, took out a spark plug to see if it was too wet to fire and it looked OK, not bone dry but not soaking either.

So keep the good ideas coming. I need to get this fixed before going to Oregon in a few weeks. Otherwise it's going to be the tent and the Prius!

Itinerant Air-Cooled

Itinerant Air-Cooled

1972 Westfalia - No start - $1.29 OSH fix (UPDATE: SUCCESS!)