85 Brake Lights Gone ~ Fixed. Explanation appended

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Lanval
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85 Brake Lights Gone ~ Fixed. Explanation appended

Post by Lanval » Tue May 03, 2011 3:08 pm

On Saturday last, I got a fix-it ticket to repair my missing brake lights. They worked before (at least I thought they did...) so I was surprised.

When I got home, I verified that that brake lights weren't working. In addition, there are no back up lights, and one running light (driver's side) and one taillight (passenger side) were also non-functional.

I opened the lights up, and discovered a rag-tag assembly of lights that may or may not have been correct. Some were bad, others looked OK, but crumbled when I tried to remove them. The rear connector on the right side wasn't pushed all the way down. The driver's side running light was due to a loose connection. Verified that it worked, and then verified what WAS working altogether:

Working:
Turn signals: L and R
Tail lights: L and R
Side Markers: L and R

******************

There were some wires chewed up on the driver's side tail light, so I fixed those; here's the tail light itself, with missing wires (thanks rats!):
Image

Here are the parts:
Image

and the tools:
Image

Once I got those solder back together, I went to check the brake lights. Still no lights. Everything else works EXCEPT the brake lights. So then I wondered if there's something else in play. A bad connection somewhere up the line....

After looking at the Bentley (section 97.60-66) I saw that there was a powered set of switches that run from brake to the lights. So I looked around to find these. They are attached to the brake master cylinder (terminology?)(see tracks 80-81 on Bentley 97.65), and I verified that they both have 12v on the Red and Black wire (R/BK) when using the brake pedal. Image



The Red and Yellow wire (R/Y) which goes to a fuse on track 57 appears to be connected. Since this is presumably the source for the power to the R/BK wire, I assume that both are satisfactory.

This leaves me wondering where I should next check for connectivity...

On track 80 there is a Grey and White wire (GY/W) which appears to go to a ground, but is NOT apparently connected to the lights themselves? It ends witha T7/4 which should be some kind of 7-point connector? And the GY/W wire is #4 in that connector? The power R/BK wire is then #3 in that same 7 point connector? Any guesses as to where that connector is?

I found the other side which is given above on the diagram as "T4a", and which is (I think) the connector below the metal brace just to the left of the rear/lower switch in the switch picture. The connector appears fine, with no chewed wires or frayed areas.

Recommendations as to next step?

Additional note: I couldn't figure out how to check voltage on the rear lights. Can I touch the red probe to the prong at the bottom of the bulb holder, and the black prong to the body? Or does it need to ground to the light holder body someplace? In any case, I couldn't verify voltage even in areas that I knew did work, so I can't be certain that I'm not getting voltage at the brake lights. The fact that everything else works, and that new bulbs didn't solve the problem would suggest to me that the power isn't arriving as expected though.

Best,

Lanval

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ruckman101
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Re: 85 Brake Lights Gone

Post by ruckman101 » Tue May 03, 2011 3:28 pm

I recently got pulled over for no brake lights or license plate light. Turned out to be a bad bulb for the license, and corrosion on the fuse. Buffed up the contacts and was back in business. I was very close to pulling the sensors/switches at the master cylinder, glad it was just a crusty fuse.

Good luck.


neal
The slipper has no teeth.

Lanval
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Re: 85 Brake Lights Gone

Post by Lanval » Tue May 03, 2011 4:42 pm

Neal,

Thanks ~ I'll check both of those. I moved the fuse around, but cleaning it up will serve better. I'll double check the license plate light. It doesn't appear to be on the same circuit, but can't hurt, might help.

******************

Just for clarity's sake: Am I correct in understanding that the brake switches are grounded through the cigarette lighter? The switches connect to an 8 amp fuse at S8 (which I take to be fuse position 8 on the regular fuse panel), and through a red wire to the cig lighter, which also grounds at point 16 (which the 85 wiring schematic conveniently forgets to define...) which on the air cooled models was next to the fuse box.

If this is correct, then is it also correct to say that "If cig lighter is powered, then 12v at switches indicates correctly working switches/power"?

L.

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Re: 85 Brake Lights Gone ~ Fixed. Explanation appended

Post by Lanval » Wed May 04, 2011 9:43 am

So, after reading a bit over on the Samba, I took another look at the switches which have been known to fail. My concern was that, while I verified 12v, I couldn't remember if I'd checked to make sure it was 12v out vs. 12v in. So that's where I started.

First, I checked to make sure there were 0v out with brake off. Then I put the brake on, and could see 12v out on the Blk/RD (powers brake lights) from the switches.

Then I wedged my breaker bar onto the brake pedal to hold the pedal down, and check the brakes. No dice. So I figured there was a break somewhere else. Just for sanity, I doubled-checked the 12v out from the switches to make sure they weren't acting up.

Surprise! NO 12v out with the breaker bar depressing the brake pedal. So I moved the breaker bar, sat down and depressed the pedal. Voila! 12v out. It was at this point that I noticed:

The brake lights don't come on until the pedal is fully engaged/depressed. In other words, the first few CM of travel don't switch on the brake lights. With my foot slowly depressing the pedal, I could see the point at which the 12v out appeared, and it was clear that the breaker bar wasn't putting enough pressure on the pedal to activate the brake lights.

So I got out, and went back and twisted the tail light body around so I could see the bulbs from the driver's seat ~ depressed the pedal, and there ya go! Worked.

*********************

The driver's side marker is still flaky in spite of some bending and sanding. In the most non-Colin fashion, I'm going to go to the junkyard, get a cleaner body, come home, cut out the old one and throw it away. Colin would make it work. I will too, but it's not going to involve an hour to rehab a dying piece of equipment. Sorry Colin....

Don't have bulbs for the back up lights; I'll get those today, and then check the switch.

The license plate lights are indeed out, and easy to fix, so I'll get those bulbs too.

Before you know it, all the lights will be back on, and the DR ("Desert Rat") will be ready for me to attack bigger projects. I have about a month off from late May to late June. That's gonna be some bus fixin time ~ on the cheap, since I won't have any income. I gotta get it squared away, because it's possible I'm going to send the family back to Japan and go mobile in the van for a year.

Thanks for the input guys!


Lanval
"Ceterum censeo Turkinem esse silendum"

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Amskeptic
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Re: 85 Brake Lights Gone

Post by Amskeptic » Wed May 04, 2011 10:00 am

Lanval wrote:is it also correct to say that "If cig lighter is powered, then 12v at switches indicates correctly working switches/power"?

L.
Let me get back to you . . . .
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

Lanval
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Re: 85 Brake Lights Gone ~ Fixed. Explanation appended

Post by Lanval » Mon May 09, 2011 1:14 pm

Colin never got back to me.

Anyway, taillight went back out, so I had to fix that, and the back up lights never worked, so had to hit that too.

Checked and rechecked the wiring from previous fix, could only get .5 volts or less at the left taillight. After screwing around for awhile, I checked the fuse out of desperation. It looked intact, though old, so I replaced it. That fixed the taillight.

Cleaned up the contacts on the reverse switch, checked the wiring, but wouldn't work. I had a replacement switch so I put it in. That fixed it.

All tail lamps now working except:

Driver's side marker
License plate lights (got one to work sort of. It's back out. Needs new wiring/contacts)

I'm off to the Polizei tomorrow to get my ticket cleared.

Lanval

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Amskeptic
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Re: 85 Brake Lights Gone ~ Fixed. Explanation appended

Post by Amskeptic » Sun May 22, 2011 6:53 pm

Lanval wrote:Colin never got back to me.
Anyway,
Lanval
Part of the plan . . . the IAC Sink Or Swim immersion program (SOS).

Or it was because I was going nutso with leaking barn roofs and damaged cars in storage.
Or sorry,
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

Lanval
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Re: 85 Brake Lights Gone ~ Fixed. Explanation appended

Post by Lanval » Sun May 22, 2011 9:54 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
Lanval wrote:Colin never got back to me.
Anyway,
Lanval
Part of the plan . . . the IAC Sink Or Swim immersion program (SOS).

Or it was because I was going nutso with leaking barn roofs and damaged cars in storage.
Or sorry,
Colin
Well, electric is where I shine (heh, get it? shine! Gawd I'm good at this!) so my problem as usual was not asking the right question. Had I thought through my process more carefully, I would've asked the right question and you could've answered it pronto.

Doesn't matter ~ lights up pretty as you please, except for that obnoxious side marker. Been raining here too, so don't feel bad. Feels like April in Oregon. Finals are over so I've got a few weeks but not much money in which to attack various problems in the van. See ya in the forum...

Mike

BTW ~ I should point out that to get my ticket cleared I had to:

1. Pay a sheriff $17 fee to check my lights
2. Pay the police a $25 paperwork fee

[Edited for off topic commentary]
:angryfire:

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