Alternator internal short?

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jmstu76
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Alternator internal short?

Post by jmstu76 » Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:30 pm

1976 2.0L FI. Running a 70 amp alternator. Alternator was rebuilt 4 or 5 years ago from a reputable local rebuilder. It wasn't put into service until last may. It probably has 3000 miles on it. Worked great. We just completed a 600 mile trip over fall break. Lots of steep grades and highway miles. I drive this bus Dailey.

A couple days after the return of our trip, I lost power momentarily. Happened again for a little longer. No power. Black smoke. Then bam it returns to normal. I
Must say that my bus is running well. Starts well and is in otherwise very good health. No shortcuts. I first suspected the fuel pump. But it is working quietly. It will even run if I pinch off the return line. Last night I was driving it with the lights on. When it would have an episode, the headlight output would vary until it snapped out of it. Between a second to 10 seconds. When it is in the episode, I can hear something mechanical spinning like a bearring going out. I don't get any lights on the dash and it won't kill the engine, but there is no power to move until it comes out of the episode. It either is running like a top or it has no power. There is no in between. My plan is to continue to drive itmlocally until it will enter an episode long enough for me to put my hands on some parts while its running poorly.

So. Can an alternator internally short out bad enough to interrupt the Ingnition so that there is no power bit the engine runs albeit poorly?

Any help appreciated.
James
1976 2.0L FI with Hydraulic lifters

Edmond, OK
(405) 623-2191

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Amskeptic
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Re: Alternator internal short?

Post by Amskeptic » Sun Oct 21, 2012 5:58 am

jmstu76 wrote: So. Can an alternator internally short out bad enough to interrupt the Ingnition so that there is no power bit the engine runs albeit poorly?

Any help appreciated.
I think this is more serious and less expensive than your suppositions.
I am guessing that you have some sort of intermittent short/open circuit in the ignition circuit, but first, let's pull the belt off of the alternator and spin it and do a push-pull test on the pulley.
Apply load to the side of the pulley as though you were belt tension. Any minor roughness or tick becomes big at 4,000 rpm. If it spins rough, bearing is out. If there is push-pull movement, bearing is out as well, but you have the added concern that the rotor is shorting out when it moves forward. This *will turn on the idiot light* however.

Run the engine with the access lid resting on the tabs that normally lock it down, so you can hear better this noise you described. Check all wire/hose routings for interference or chafing.

I think you might have a either a reverse light fuse holder shorting on its clip, OR a heater blower issue. They both can kill the coil and it drains the electricity but quick. Also, wiggle the key the next time it happens, then, if that doesn't change anything, quickly wiggle the light switch and the emergency flasher switch (lightly please!), then actuate the heater blower, and see if there is any impact on your symptoms.
Let us know!
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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jmstu76
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Re: Alternator internal short?

Post by jmstu76 » Sun Oct 21, 2012 4:20 pm

OK, so I haven't pulled the belt just yet. I did however think that my reverse light fuse holder was way too close to the distributor and plug wires. I was up being held up against it quite well with the fuse holder clip oriented the way it was.

this is how the fuse holder was

Image

It was actually almost laying on the distributor. It's a bad pic, I know.

I moved the clip so that the ends of the fuse holder (aka the wires) are as far away from the distributor/plug wires as physically possible while still using the factory clip.

Like this

Image

I am not sure how the clip was set at the factory so if anyone cares to chime in...

I did not have an ignition episode on my 20 mile drive for pics today. We did a shoot on Rt. 66.

Here is a pic of us enroute. Pop's is up ahead. Arcadia, OK.

Image

Here is a pic of the driver's side at one of the spots

Image

Edit:

My plug wires have maybe 40K miles on them. What is the service life of plug wires and could the higher mileage play a part in the Spark jumping to the reverse wire?
James
1976 2.0L FI with Hydraulic lifters

Edmond, OK
(405) 623-2191

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dtrumbo
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Re: Alternator internal short?

Post by dtrumbo » Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:39 am

The clip is supposed to be over on the left side of the engine compartment nowhere near where yours is. Here's a pic of my engine compartment. Since it's kinda hard to see, I've circled my fuse holder in red.
Image
- Dick

1970 Transporter. 2015cc, dual Weber IDF 40's
1978 Riviera Camper. Bone stock GE 2.0L F.I.
1979 Super Beetle convertible.

... as it turns out, it was the coil!

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jmstu76
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Re: Alternator internal short?

Post by jmstu76 » Mon Oct 22, 2012 1:19 pm

Thank you for the pic. I don't even have a spare screw hole in that location for the fuse holder. My bus came with an aux battery from the factory. Possibly they mounted the fuse holders on the fan on the Westfalias.

I pulled the belt. The alternator feels so smooth. It is what you would expect for a recently rebuilt alt. buttery smooth spin. No clicking. No play fore or aft. The pulley will free spin for 20 seconds with a good spin.

At this time I am not going to pull the alternator.

Lets get back to checking for ignition shorts. I have put a new good coil in and a new distributor cap. (I put a light sanding on the tip of the rotor). So at this point. I'm going to drive it and report back.
James
1976 2.0L FI with Hydraulic lifters

Edmond, OK
(405) 623-2191

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Bleyseng
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Re: Alternator internal short?

Post by Bleyseng » Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:31 pm

On my 77 Westy the fuse holder is over where Dick has circled with a little clip so it lays on the outside of the seam lip. I have a extra battery too.
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

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jmstu76
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Re: Alternator internal short?

Post by jmstu76 » Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:37 pm

Bleyseng wrote:On my 77 Westy the fuse holder is over where Dick has circled with a little clip so it lays on the outside of the seam lip. I have a extra battery too.
Thank you. Any chance someone would have a pic of the clip. I am ready to move my fuse now.
James
1976 2.0L FI with Hydraulic lifters

Edmond, OK
(405) 623-2191

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dtrumbo
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Re: Alternator internal short?

Post by dtrumbo » Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:00 pm

I'll try to remember to snap a pic of it either later tonight or first in the morning.
- Dick

1970 Transporter. 2015cc, dual Weber IDF 40's
1978 Riviera Camper. Bone stock GE 2.0L F.I.
1979 Super Beetle convertible.

... as it turns out, it was the coil!

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dtrumbo
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Re: Alternator internal short?

Post by dtrumbo » Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:42 am

As promised, here is the photo of the fuse holder clip and how/where it is mounted.

Image
- Dick

1970 Transporter. 2015cc, dual Weber IDF 40's
1978 Riviera Camper. Bone stock GE 2.0L F.I.
1979 Super Beetle convertible.

... as it turns out, it was the coil!

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Amskeptic
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Re: Alternator internal short?

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Oct 23, 2012 4:14 pm

jmstu76 wrote:
Bleyseng wrote:On my 77 Westy the fuse holder is over where Dick has circled with a little clip so it lays on the outside of the seam lip. I have a extra battery too.
Thank you. Any chance someone would have a pic of the clip. I am ready to move my fuse now.
Your clip, jmstu, is correct for the earlier buses. All I wuz sayin' was check for ugliness, like with the heater fuse wiring. They can get nasty and short next to surrounding metal. Just keep your eyes open for anything that doesn't look pretty enough to power your engine reliably.
Colin

[plug wires in an oil-free well-installed (all clips utilized) environment should last the life of the engine)
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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jmstu76
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Re: Alternator internal short?

Post by jmstu76 » Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:59 pm

Ok,

So I haven't found any ugliness just yet. Below is a run down of what I did last night

New bosch cap
cleaned (as in wiped down and inspected) rotor
pulled magnet from compufire wiped down inspected
changed plugs. All plugs were tan in color. No. 3 had some ash on the electrode
wiped down plug wires and inspected for cracks/bare spots
used dielectric grease on the plug wires where they attach to the plugs
noticed the negative coil FI wire (white wire that transmits signal of coil firing to ECU) was running very close the the Number 1 plug wire, so I re routed it and wire tied it in a better spot
I have check all FI connections, including the case grounds. I checked the ECU connection, double relay, resister pack
Cleaned the negative chassis ground from Battery
Check to make sure Temp II sensor is firmly connected and is tight in the head
New Bosch Blue "044" coil
Just for shits while the AFM and filter box were out, I tested my ECC. It works. =D>
Made sure all spade connectors on the coil were slightly sqeezed for maximum contact.

My Number 2 plug wire end is chipped. It has been this way for a while, meaning 20K miles or so.

Image

Again, Alt seems very smooth and I am getting not even a hint of a glow on the idiot light. (I did get a faint glow at night with my 55 amp alt when running lots of accesories ie. lights, radio, booster fan, turn signal, etc)

Things not tested

ECU
Fuel pump (quiet and not hot)
Ignition switch (although it's not that old and it's one of the so called good black and white switches)
Headlight switch (no longer German VW, must be a Mexican or Brazilian)
Emergency Flasher switch (I know they fall apart and need a zip tie at times, mine, however has always worked flawlessly)

That being said, the ignition, headlight switch and emer. flasher switch do work correctly at this time and haven't shown a faulty performance in a very long time or ever.

I guess I will pull apart the booster fan fuse and the reverse light fuse holders and really take a good look at them.

This ignition short only happens once or twice briefly on a 15-20 minute cruise.
James
1976 2.0L FI with Hydraulic lifters

Edmond, OK
(405) 623-2191

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jmstu76
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Re: Alternator internal short?

Post by jmstu76 » Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:53 pm

It ended up being the starter internally shorting or grounding. The larger starter motor was spinning but the solenoid wasn't kicking the drive gear out into the flywheel thankfully. The only way I figured it out was it finally stranded me. I could hear something underneath. Tried to restart and it just spun. Even with the key out it was spinning. It spun long enough for me to get out and touch it to confirm it was wilding spinning.

So. Through a used starter in and ran my new (2 years old) Bosch unit into the local rebuilder. He went through it and replaced thread bushing and possibly the field. He told me to check my bushing in the bell housing but i replaced it with the new starter. I would hope it would last longer than 2 years. Replacing it was a bitch with the engine in.
James
1976 2.0L FI with Hydraulic lifters

Edmond, OK
(405) 623-2191

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Amskeptic
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Re: Alternator internal short?

Post by Amskeptic » Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:34 pm

jmstu76 wrote:It ended up being the starter internally shorting or grounding.
Even with the key out it was spinning.
Wow, that must have been hard on the cables and the battery.
Glad you got it resolved.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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jmstu76
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Re: Alternator internal short?

Post by jmstu76 » Mon Dec 24, 2012 12:20 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
jmstu76 wrote:It ended up being the starter internally shorting or grounding.
Even with the key out it was spinning.
Wow, that must have been hard on the cables and the battery.
Glad you got it resolved.
Colin
I too am very glad it is resolved. Im sure it wasn't the best for the wires/cables but she's made it this far into life. She seems to be doing fine now.
James
1976 2.0L FI with Hydraulic lifters

Edmond, OK
(405) 623-2191

User avatar
Amskeptic
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Re: Alternator internal short?

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Dec 24, 2012 2:59 pm

jmstu76 wrote:
I too am very glad it is resolved. Immature it wasn't the best for the wires/cables but she's made it this far into life. She sea to be doing fine now
Was this posted by phone?
Colin :cyclopsani:
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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