Clutch...Gone in sixty seconds.
- Hippie
- IAC Addict!
- Location: 41º 35' 27" N, 93º 37' 15" W
- Status: Offline
Clutch...Gone in sixty seconds.
Not my clutch, but a friend of mine's clutch.
Not really sixty seconds but several thousand miles.
'77 Westy with a 2.0L engine:
OK, he admits he's too hard on his clutch, but I've ridden with him in this thing many times and I can't see why it would burn out so soon.
Apparently, he has a flywheel for a 1700 or 1800...I wanna say 217mm but the clutch disc and pressure plate match it. They are from a 1700 or 1800, too.
He can get a 2 liter sized (228mm?) clutch and pressure plate locally but has to order the correct flywheel.
Colin adjusted the clutch last summer so we know it was fine, and has been driven daily ever since.
Last week, he was smelling what he thought was burning electrical but kept driving several miles on the highway when he couldn't find anything burning because he had a butt smoldering in the ashtray and a propane heater going, too.
He said the Bus wouldn't get up to top speed though.
I told him (later by phone) to sniff around the coil, etc., and check for a dragging brake as a process of elimination to see if the clutch were burning.
It did turn out to be the clutch and now it won't go anywhere at all.
He pulled the motor last weekend and went shopping for parts without much luck so far because he has the wrong flywheel.
Anyway, that's the background. Now the questions...
Would having an 1700-1800 clutch and flywheel in a 2 liter Westy burn it like that?
What should he check to make it not happen again?
Could it have just been a cheapo clutch assembly? It was almost new when he got the Bus and it doesn't have that many miles on it...maybe 15,000ish total.
Thanks much.
Rob
Not really sixty seconds but several thousand miles.
'77 Westy with a 2.0L engine:
OK, he admits he's too hard on his clutch, but I've ridden with him in this thing many times and I can't see why it would burn out so soon.
Apparently, he has a flywheel for a 1700 or 1800...I wanna say 217mm but the clutch disc and pressure plate match it. They are from a 1700 or 1800, too.
He can get a 2 liter sized (228mm?) clutch and pressure plate locally but has to order the correct flywheel.
Colin adjusted the clutch last summer so we know it was fine, and has been driven daily ever since.
Last week, he was smelling what he thought was burning electrical but kept driving several miles on the highway when he couldn't find anything burning because he had a butt smoldering in the ashtray and a propane heater going, too.
He said the Bus wouldn't get up to top speed though.
I told him (later by phone) to sniff around the coil, etc., and check for a dragging brake as a process of elimination to see if the clutch were burning.
It did turn out to be the clutch and now it won't go anywhere at all.
He pulled the motor last weekend and went shopping for parts without much luck so far because he has the wrong flywheel.
Anyway, that's the background. Now the questions...
Would having an 1700-1800 clutch and flywheel in a 2 liter Westy burn it like that?
What should he check to make it not happen again?
Could it have just been a cheapo clutch assembly? It was almost new when he got the Bus and it doesn't have that many miles on it...maybe 15,000ish total.
Thanks much.
Rob
- vwlover77
- IAC Addict!
- Location: North Canton, Ohio
- Status: Offline
- Amskeptic
- IAC "Help Desk"
- Status: Offline
Re: Clutch...Gone in sixty seconds.
Clutches are like dam collapses. The first couple of tablespoons are a long time coming, but the final few billion gallons are pretty quick.Hippie wrote:OK, he admits he's too hard on his clutch, but I've ridden with him in this thing many times and I can't see why it would burn out so soon.
Would having an 1700-1800 clutch and flywheel in a 2 liter Westy burn it like that?
The 2.0 wants the 228mm clutch. The torque of the 2.0 is an easy 20% greater than the earlier engines, strangely enough, the 228mm clutch is only 15% more area, so they skirted with the margin of reliability as it was.
I hope the bell housing is ready for a 228 flywheel and pressure plate, I have no idea what you have in that car.
Yes, the driving "technique" was a little short, as I remember it. You must not apply the accelerator until your foot is off the clutch, except for a low-rpm launch from standstill. The problem is once the clutch begins to slip in the slightest, it increases heat which exacerbates slippage, and the quadratically increasing closed-loop cycle of destruction is guaranteed.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles
- Hippie
- IAC Addict!
- Location: 41º 35' 27" N, 93º 37' 15" W
- Status: Offline
Re: Clutch...Gone in sixty seconds.
I think so. There was normal slack in the top of the pedal anyway. The pedal felt fine to me last I drove it.vwlover77 wrote:Did he have enough freeplay in the clutch cable adjustment?
The clutch in that Geo I used to have went fast like that.Amskeptic wrote:Clutches are like dam collapses. The first couple of tablespoons are a long time coming, but the final few billion gallons are pretty quick. Colin
Burn² + (n)Burn + n? yeah, I think that's what happened on the highway.Amskeptic wrote:... and the quadratically increasing closed-loop cycle of destruction is guaranteed.
Colin
Well he's shopping for a Flywheel.
He told me Vee Village said the 2.0 Liter size was discontinued but I think The Type 4 Store has used ones listed.
Rob
- Amskeptic
- IAC "Help Desk"
- Status: Offline
Re: Clutch...Gone in sixty seconds.
Naaaaaaaah. The 228mm clutch is also used on the Vanagons and is readily available. Fitchel and Sachs my friend, no scrimping.Hippie wrote: He told me Vee Village said the 2.0 Liter size was discontinued but I think The Type 4 Store has used ones listed.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles
- Hippie
- IAC Addict!
- Location: 41º 35' 27" N, 93º 37' 15" W
- Status: Offline
Re: Clutch...Gone in sixty seconds.
Oh, I wasn't too clear, I meant the flywheel was the trouble. NAPA had the Sachs clutch kit in stock.Amskeptic wrote:Naaaaaaaah. The 228mm clutch is also used on the Vanagons and is readily available. Fitchel and Sachs my friend, no scrimping.
Colin
Rob
- vwlover77
- IAC Addict!
- Location: North Canton, Ohio
- Status: Offline
Hey, I've got a spare 2-liter engine sitting in my garage given to me by all-around good guy Sean Gallagher. I have not pulled off the pressure plate to have a look at the flywheel, but if you're interested, I will pull it off and see how things look. What I can see is rusty, so no telling how it looks inside. If you want the flywheel, or the whole assembly, it's yours for the price of shipping (which could be prohibitive depending on the weight and your distance from zip code 44720, but maybe not). Let me know!
Don
---------------------------
78 Westy
71 Super Beetle Convertible Autostick
"When we let our compassion go, we let go of whatever claim we have to the divine." - Bruce Springsteen
---------------------------
78 Westy
71 Super Beetle Convertible Autostick
"When we let our compassion go, we let go of whatever claim we have to the divine." - Bruce Springsteen
- Hippie
- IAC Addict!
- Location: 41º 35' 27" N, 93º 37' 15" W
- Status: Offline
Jeez Don, that's cool of you!vwlover77 wrote:Hey, I've got a spare 2-liter engine sitting in my garage given to me by all-around good guy Sean Gallagher. I have not pulled off the pressure plate to have a look at the flywheel, but if you're interested, I will pull it off and see how things look. What I can see is rusty, so no telling how it looks inside. If you want the flywheel, or the whole assembly, it's yours for the price of shipping (which could be prohibitive depending on the weight and your distance from zip code 44720, but maybe not). Let me know!
Let me try to get a hold of Bill this weekend and see if he's ordered one yet.
Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner...I got busy busy.
Do me a favor?
If I ever want to replace a wheel bearing on a front wheel drive Lincoln myself...I will pay your air fare to come over and smack me upside my head.
Thanks!
Rob
- Amskeptic
- IAC "Help Desk"
- Status: Offline
What is wrong with the flywheel that you'd have to replace it.Hippie wrote:Almost...it was one jumbo bearing!vwlover77 wrote: I just hope it wasn't a Timken bearing!
I'm sending you a PM about the flywheel...
Rob
The only three things I can think of are:
1) nasty cracks in the friction surface
2) nasty nasty grooves where the oil seal rides
3) ripped up starter teeth
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles
- vwlover77
- IAC Addict!
- Location: North Canton, Ohio
- Status: Offline
I pulled it apart tonight and everything looks pretty good too me. (And I marked the pressure plate and flywheel so they can go back together properly.)
- Starter teeth appear fine
- Friction surface of the flywheel looks decent - no cracks visible.
- There is one groove you can feel with a fingernail where the oil seal rides, but it's very close to the end of the hub, so it could proably be avoided. I'm guessing this engine has never been apart.
- The pressure plate is rusty on the outside, but looks good on the inside. The fingers all look good too.
- The clutch disk (Sachs) looks good, although it may have soaked up some oil
I can ship any or all pieces, just let me know....
- Starter teeth appear fine
- Friction surface of the flywheel looks decent - no cracks visible.
- There is one groove you can feel with a fingernail where the oil seal rides, but it's very close to the end of the hub, so it could proably be avoided. I'm guessing this engine has never been apart.
- The pressure plate is rusty on the outside, but looks good on the inside. The fingers all look good too.
- The clutch disk (Sachs) looks good, although it may have soaked up some oil
I can ship any or all pieces, just let me know....
Don
---------------------------
78 Westy
71 Super Beetle Convertible Autostick
"When we let our compassion go, we let go of whatever claim we have to the divine." - Bruce Springsteen
---------------------------
78 Westy
71 Super Beetle Convertible Autostick
"When we let our compassion go, we let go of whatever claim we have to the divine." - Bruce Springsteen
- vwlover77
- IAC Addict!
- Location: North Canton, Ohio
- Status: Offline
I've got the flywheel, pressure plate, and clutch disk packaged up and ready to ship.
Before he pays for the shipping, can anyone see anything wrong with these parts??????
Before he pays for the shipping, can anyone see anything wrong with these parts??????
Don
---------------------------
78 Westy
71 Super Beetle Convertible Autostick
"When we let our compassion go, we let go of whatever claim we have to the divine." - Bruce Springsteen
---------------------------
78 Westy
71 Super Beetle Convertible Autostick
"When we let our compassion go, we let go of whatever claim we have to the divine." - Bruce Springsteen
- Amskeptic
- IAC "Help Desk"
- Status: Offline
Not well enough to matter. . .vwlover77 wrote:I've got the flywheel, pressure plate, and clutch disk packaged up and ready to ship.
Before he pays for the shipping, can anyone see anything wrong with these parts??????
I wanted to know what was so desperately wrong with Bill's flywheel.
In any event, the friction surfaces must be well-sanded in the 45* cross-hatch pattern and wiped down with GumOut. . . that's a "buyer's chore" by the way.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles
- vwlover77
- IAC Addict!
- Location: North Canton, Ohio
- Status: Offline
It's the wrong (i.e. smaller) size and this one is the correct 228mm version.Amskeptic wrote: I wanted to know what was so desperately wrong with Bill's flywheel.
Don
---------------------------
78 Westy
71 Super Beetle Convertible Autostick
"When we let our compassion go, we let go of whatever claim we have to the divine." - Bruce Springsteen
---------------------------
78 Westy
71 Super Beetle Convertible Autostick
"When we let our compassion go, we let go of whatever claim we have to the divine." - Bruce Springsteen