Clutch...Gone in sixty seconds.

Hippie · Post by **Hippie** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:06 pm

Not my clutch, but a friend of mine's clutch.
Not really sixty seconds but several thousand miles.

'77 Westy with a 2.0L engine:
OK, he admits he's too hard on his clutch, but I've ridden with him in this thing many times and I can't see why it would burn out so soon.

Apparently, he has a flywheel for a 1700 or 1800...I wanna say 217mm but the clutch disc and pressure plate match it. They are from a 1700 or 1800, too.
He can get a 2 liter sized (228mm?) clutch and pressure plate locally but has to order the correct flywheel.
Colin adjusted the clutch last summer so we know it was fine, and has been driven daily ever since.

Last week, he was smelling what he thought was burning electrical but kept driving several miles on the highway when he couldn't find anything burning because he had a butt smoldering in the ashtray and a propane heater going, too.
He said the Bus wouldn't get up to top speed though.
I told him (later by phone) to sniff around the coil, etc., and check for a dragging brake as a process of elimination to see if the clutch were burning.
It did turn out to be the clutch and now it won't go anywhere at all.
He pulled the motor last weekend and went shopping for parts without much luck so far because he has the wrong flywheel.

Anyway, that's the background. Now the questions...
Would having an 1700-1800 clutch and flywheel in a 2 liter Westy burn it like that?
What should he check to make it not happen again?
Could it have just been a cheapo clutch assembly? It was almost new when he got the Bus and it doesn't have that many miles on it...maybe 15,000ish total.

Thanks much.

Rob

vwlover77 · Post by **vwlover77** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:15 pm

Did he have enough freeplay in the clutch cable adjustment?

Post by **Amskeptic** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:25 pm

Hippie wrote:OK, he admits he's too hard on his clutch, but I've ridden with him in this thing many times and I can't see why it would burn out so soon.

Would having an 1700-1800 clutch and flywheel in a 2 liter Westy burn it like that?

Clutches are like dam collapses. The first couple of tablespoons are a long time coming, but the final few billion gallons are pretty quick.

The 2.0 wants the 228mm clutch. The torque of the 2.0 is an easy 20% greater than the earlier engines, strangely enough, the 228mm clutch is only 15% more area, so they skirted with the margin of reliability as it was.

I hope the bell housing is ready for a 228 flywheel and pressure plate, I have no idea what you have in that car.

Yes, the driving "technique" was a little short, as I remember it. You must not apply the accelerator until your foot is off the clutch, except for a low-rpm launch from standstill. The problem is once the clutch begins to slip in the slightest, it increases heat which exacerbates slippage, and the quadratically increasing closed-loop cycle of destruction is guaranteed.
Colin

Hippie · Post by **Hippie** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:36 pm

vwlover77 wrote:Did he have enough freeplay in the clutch cable adjustment?

I think so. There was normal slack in the top of the pedal anyway. The pedal felt fine to me last I drove it.

Amskeptic wrote:Clutches are like dam collapses. The first couple of tablespoons are a long time coming, but the final few billion gallons are pretty quick. Colin

The clutch in that Geo I used to have went fast like that.

Amskeptic wrote:... and the quadratically increasing closed-loop cycle of destruction is guaranteed.
Colin

Burn² + (n)Burn + n? yeah, I think that's what happened on the highway.
Well he's shopping for a Flywheel.
He told me Vee Village said the 2.0 Liter size was discontinued but I think The Type 4 Store has used ones listed.

Rob

Post by **Amskeptic** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 8:59 pm

Hippie wrote: He told me Vee Village said the 2.0 Liter size was discontinued but I think The Type 4 Store has used ones listed.

Naaaaaaaah. The 228mm clutch is also used on the Vanagons and is readily available. Fitchel and Sachs my friend, no scrimping.
Colin

Hippie · Post by **Hippie** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 8:57 am

Amskeptic wrote:Naaaaaaaah. The 228mm clutch is also used on the Vanagons and is readily available. Fitchel and Sachs my friend, no scrimping.
Colin

Oh, I wasn't too clear, I meant the flywheel was the trouble. NAPA had the Sachs clutch kit in stock.

Rob

vwlover77 · Post by **vwlover77** » Thu Jan 31, 2008 10:12 am

Hey, I've got a spare 2-liter engine sitting in my garage given to me by all-around good guy Sean Gallagher. I have not pulled off the pressure plate to have a look at the flywheel, but if you're interested, I will pull it off and see how things look. What I can see is rusty, so no telling how it looks inside. If you want the flywheel, or the whole assembly, it's yours for the price of shipping (which could be prohibitive depending on the weight and your distance from zip code 44720, but maybe not). Let me know!

Hippie · Post by **Hippie** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:08 pm

vwlover77 wrote:Hey, I've got a spare 2-liter engine sitting in my garage given to me by all-around good guy Sean Gallagher. I have not pulled off the pressure plate to have a look at the flywheel, but if you're interested, I will pull it off and see how things look. What I can see is rusty, so no telling how it looks inside. If you want the flywheel, or the whole assembly, it's yours for the price of shipping (which could be prohibitive depending on the weight and your distance from zip code 44720, but maybe not). Let me know!

Jeez Don, that's cool of you!
Let me try to get a hold of Bill this weekend and see if he's ordered one yet.

Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner...I got busy busy.
Do me a favor?
If I ever want to replace a wheel bearing on a front wheel drive Lincoln myself...I will pay your air fare to come over and smack me upside my head.
Thanks!

Rob

vwlover77 · Post by **vwlover77** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:59 pm

I just hope it wasn't a Timken bearing!

Hippie · Post by **Hippie** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 1:46 pm

vwlover77 wrote: I just hope it wasn't a Timken bearing!

Almost...it was one jumbo bearing!
I'm sending you a PM about the flywheel...

Rob

Post by **Amskeptic** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 4:03 pm

Hippie wrote:
vwlover77 wrote: I just hope it wasn't a Timken bearing!
Almost...it was one jumbo bearing!
I'm sending you a PM about the flywheel...

Rob

What is wrong with the flywheel that you'd have to replace it.
The only three things I can think of are:
1) nasty cracks in the friction surface
2) nasty nasty grooves where the oil seal rides
3) ripped up starter teeth
Colin

vwlover77 · Post by **vwlover77** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 6:56 pm

I pulled it apart tonight and everything looks pretty good too me. (And I marked the pressure plate and flywheel so they can go back together properly.)
- Starter teeth appear fine
- Friction surface of the flywheel looks decent - no cracks visible.
- There is one groove you can feel with a fingernail where the oil seal rides, but it's very close to the end of the hub, so it could proably be avoided. I'm guessing this engine has never been apart.
- The pressure plate is rusty on the outside, but looks good on the inside. The fingers all look good too.
- The clutch disk (Sachs) looks good, although it may have soaked up some oil

I can ship any or all pieces, just let me know....

vwlover77 · Post by **vwlover77** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 6:24 am

I've got the flywheel, pressure plate, and clutch disk packaged up and ready to ship.

Before he pays for the shipping, can anyone see anything wrong with these parts??????

Post by **Amskeptic** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 11:47 am

vwlover77 wrote:I've got the flywheel, pressure plate, and clutch disk packaged up and ready to ship.

Before he pays for the shipping, can anyone see anything wrong with these parts??????

Not well enough to matter. . .
I wanted to know what was so desperately wrong with Bill's flywheel.
In any event, the friction surfaces must be well-sanded in the 45* cross-hatch pattern and wiped down with GumOut. . . that's a "buyer's chore" by the way.
Colin

vwlover77 · Post by **vwlover77** » Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:02 pm

Amskeptic wrote: I wanted to know what was so desperately wrong with Bill's flywheel.

It's the wrong (i.e. smaller) size and this one is the correct 228mm version.

Itinerant Air-Cooled

Itinerant Air-Cooled

Clutch...Gone in sixty seconds.

Clutch...Gone in sixty seconds.

Re: Clutch...Gone in sixty seconds.

Re: Clutch...Gone in sixty seconds.

Re: Clutch...Gone in sixty seconds.

Re: Clutch...Gone in sixty seconds.