Acute onset of warm 4th gear popping out…

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asiab3
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Acute onset of warm 4th gear popping out…

Post by asiab3 » Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:07 am

I'm enjoying the heck out of this new engine, but as I give it longer and longer road trip responsibilities, I'm noticing a few things.

1) The transaxle popped out of fourth about once a month for the last few years, usually when under full throttle between 2k-3k RPMs up a hill, right before I would downshift to third. This only happened when the transaxle/engine combo was 100% warmed up.

2) When my engine was tuned well and running its best, this would happen more often. If I was experimenting with induction, timing, or exhaust, the popping out would happen less with a less-efficient setup.

3) Now with the rebuilt engine, after about 40 miles on the freeway, I can not keep it in 4th gear under 55mph. It just pops out within a few seconds of selecting the gear. Speeds above 55 seem to mitigate the problem, though on a steep hill @60 it will still pop out with a heavy right foot. Speeds under 50 require a painful hand on the shifter. :( This has been constant since I took it on its first 50+ mile freeway drive with the new engine. It was tolerable until I removed the engine to adjust endplay. Now it is worse.

I'm hoping that there is some secret alignment trick, with something like the mustache bar fore-aft placement, that hopefully I'm missing. I briefly hypothesized that the issue has been there all along, and the new engine is just that much more powerful, but I do not think it is THAT much more powerful… With the new engine, I did remove the transaxle to clean it, install a nosecone boot, paint the mount, and replace the shift rod shuttlecocks bushings. These small details should not matter, I think.

I'm open to installing a bearing retainer plate, but this happens on acceleration, not on deceleration. Wouldn't that push the mainshaft back in my case?

The 1,100-mile trip planned for early May has been temporarily rerouted from the mountain route to the flat desert route. :pukeright:
Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
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Re: Acute onset of warm 4th gear popping out…

Post by wcfvw69 » Wed Apr 15, 2015 5:23 am

Robbie-

I had the same popping out of fourth gear issue in my bus. I tried all the suggested tricks to no avail. I yanked the transmission and took it in for an overhaul. I had no idea of the mileage on it though the transmission had been gone thru before as it was painted black. The amount of issues and bad parts they found inside it made me wonder how the darn thing worked at all.

Do you have an idea how many miles are on the transmission currently? If you do decide to get it overhauled, you will be very confident in your rig having a freshly rebuild engine and trans. :)
1970 Westfalia bus. Stock 1776 dual port type 1 engine. Restored German Solex 34-3. Restored 205Q distributor, restored to factory appearance engine.

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Re: Acute onset of warm 4th gear popping out…

Post by asiab3 » Wed Apr 15, 2015 7:27 am

wcfvw69 wrote:Robbie-

I had the same popping out of fourth gear issue in my bus. I tried all the suggested tricks to no avail. I yanked the transmission and took it in for an overhaul. I had no idea of the mileage on it though the transmission had been gone thru before as it was painted black. The amount of issues and bad parts they found inside it made me wonder how the darn thing worked at all.

Do you have an idea how many miles are on the transmission currently? If you do decide to get it overhauled, you will be very confident in your rig having a freshly rebuild engine and trans. :)
Hi Bill,

I found your thread, and it seemed like you had a similar issue. My issue lies with the extremely sudden nature of this. Transaxles don't wear out while sitting unused.

Right? :scratch:

I want to go through a proper diagnostic path before I throw parts and money at something that might not be a problem. The fact that it ONLY happens when fully warm perplexes me too. You, Neal, and others who have similar threads made it sound like it happened relatively soon in the test drives. I will have to drive 40-50 miles every time I want to test a change, so I want to make my adjustments count.

Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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Re: Acute onset of warm 4th gear popping out…

Post by wcfvw69 » Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:43 am

asiab3 wrote:
wcfvw69 wrote:Robbie-

I had the same popping out of fourth gear issue in my bus. I tried all the suggested tricks to no avail. I yanked the transmission and took it in for an overhaul. I had no idea of the mileage on it though the transmission had been gone thru before as it was painted black. The amount of issues and bad parts they found inside it made me wonder how the darn thing worked at all.

Do you have an idea how many miles are on the transmission currently? If you do decide to get it overhauled, you will be very confident in your rig having a freshly rebuild engine and trans. :)
Hi Bill,

I found your thread, and it seemed like you had a similar issue. My issue lies with the extremely sudden nature of this. Transaxles don't wear out while sitting unused.

Right? :scratch:

I want to go through a proper diagnostic path before I throw parts and money at something that might not be a problem. The fact that it ONLY happens when fully warm perplexes me too. You, Neal, and others who have similar threads made it sound like it happened relatively soon in the test drives. I will have to drive 40-50 miles every time I want to test a change, so I want to make my adjustments count.

Robbie
Actually, mine was a sudden thing as well. I can't recall what I said in that thread but I'd pulled the engine and transmission to reseal them. I only changed the seals and when I re-installed everything, it started popping out of fourth gear. He had never done that prior. I called Arizona Transaxle and spoke to the owner Bill (super nice guy BTW) and he had me check a few things as well. I ended up pulling the nose cone off and found nothing un-usual. That's when I took it down to him to go thru.

I hope it's nothing serious in your case but suspect after the research that I did in "popping out of gear", it may require a tear down to correct.

Let's us know what your discover.
1970 Westfalia bus. Stock 1776 dual port type 1 engine. Restored German Solex 34-3. Restored 205Q distributor, restored to factory appearance engine.

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Re: Acute onset of warm 4th gear popping out…

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Apr 15, 2015 12:40 pm

asiab3 wrote: I can not keep it in 4th gear under 55mph. It just pops out within a few seconds
I'm hoping that there is some secret alignment trick,

I'm open to installing a bearing retainer plate, but this happens on acceleration, not on deceleration. Wouldn't that push the mainshaft back in my case?
Hello Robbie,

It is toast. Find a local rebuilder, and ask if we can have two days with him to rebuild both of our transaxles under supervision. I will pay full price for a rebuild, but I really want to do it myself under good supervision with a decent parts supply to draw from. Sound like fun?
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: Acute onset of warm 4th gear popping out…

Post by asiab3 » Wed Apr 15, 2015 5:09 pm

Amskeptic wrote: Hello Robbie,

It is toast. Find a local rebuilder, and ask if we can have two days with him to rebuild both of our transaxles under supervision. I will pay full price for a rebuild, but I really want to do it myself under good supervision with a decent parts supply to draw from. Sound like fun?
Colin
The silver lining in this, I guess, is that maybe the new engine IS that much more powerful… :cheers:

My source for NOS parts, Jim, owns a one-man shop near Sylmar. He rebuilds transaxles, and has been a tremendous help to me before and during my engine rebuild. I briefly spoke to him about doing mom's bug transaxle, but he was busy at the time. In the early summer he's usually appeasing the wealthy buggy crowd, though he's always stopped what he's doing to help me when I needed it. I spent $40 there a few years ago and he gave up almost an entire afternoon making sure I had everything in my engine related to it squared away.

I'll call him today. No website, no email… Just the kinda guy you need, no?

Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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Re: Acute onset of warm 4th gear popping out…

Post by asiab3 » Sun Apr 19, 2015 8:08 pm

Update:

Yesterday I found my 46-year-old shift coupler got tired of receiving orders from behind and deposited the lag bolt and right bushings somewhere on the turnpike. New coupler installed gives nearly identical shift precision with shorter throws. I'll take it.

(Hey Colin: my spring loaded 3-4 gate allowed me to drive home using 1st AND 2nd, instead of vise-gripping the shift shaft into first gear only. I had a usable fore-aft throw of the shifter, though it put my knuckles into the intake plenum a few times. :geek: )

However, while I was under the car, I noticed the left and right mustache bar mounts were not mirrored right to left. The left mount was "full forward" and the right mount was positioned "full rearward." I bottle-jacked the engine up by the center of the mustache bar, jiggled the engine to find a new placement, and drove 250 miles with the popping out cut down to only speeds under 45 in fourth when hot.

This might buy me time to get to Phoenix next month, BUT will I increase damage by driving it this way? I no longer have to rest my hand on the shifter ever.

Relieved by that last bit,
Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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Re: Acute onset of warm 4th gear popping out…

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Apr 21, 2015 7:18 am

asiab3 wrote:Update:
while I was under the car, I noticed the left and right mustache bar mounts were not mirrored right to left. The left mount was "full forward" and the right mount was positioned "full rearward." I bottle-jacked the engine up by the center of the mustache bar, jiggled the engine to find a new placement, and drove 250 miles with the popping out cut down to only speeds under 45 in fourth when hot.

This might buy me time to get to Phoenix next month, BUT will I increase damage by driving it this way? I no longer have to rest my hand on the shifter ever.

Relieved by that last bit,
Robbie
Man, some kinda sloppy-ass engine installer, I need to check that poor car out thoroughly when I get out there.

You know that none of us can foretell how your transmission might like a trip to Pheonix, the only critical damage that can occur is if you have to keep your hand on the gearshift or a bungee. That will wear the shift fork to a knife edge. Popping out causes only the damage you hear/feel X approximately 12:1 leverage ratio. That means, if the gearshift bangs out of 4th with a 5 lb strike (if your hand were right there to catch it), you are looking about 60 lbs of violence at the synchro hub X number of repetitions, usually at the keys that try to hold it in gear.

If I were playing worse case scenario, I would do Phoenix knowing that I might have a 250 mile trip home in 3rd gear, these things rarely grenade. Locking up solid in a particular gear, I hear is a trip . . .
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: Acute onset of warm 4th gear popping out…

Post by ruckman101 » Tue Apr 21, 2015 9:54 pm

I love a happy (inexpensive) ending. Shot couplers are what I look for first, after never being able to find first. Obviously my rebuild wasn't from a reputable operation. I let it slide after the second rebuild when it seemed to become more reliable. But in the last couple months, I'm back to square one.

Through the ordeal, we certainly explored the relationship of shifter/transmission/engine mount nuances. But truly, the proper operation shouldn't be a matter of nuance. At this point, I'm going to be pulling the bell housing off the offender, an mounting it to my original transaxle that wasn't giving me problems. In the mean time, I resist the bungie cord solution, and try not to keep too heavy a hand on the shifter while in fourth gear.

No help, I know. But I'll keep you posted. A reputable builder is the key. My "too good to believe" deal proved to be just that. Don't even talk to me about the work he did on the heads I'm running on my newly rebuilt engine. I don't want to hear about it.


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Re: Acute onset of warm 4th gear popping out…

Post by asiab3 » Tue Apr 21, 2015 11:01 pm

ruckman101 wrote:I love a happy (inexpensive) ending.
Ending? Not quite. Happy? Almost. Happier, for now!

I agree with your thoughts about the nuances. Squaring off my power train certainly helped, it only popped out twice when I did the same 250 mile trek again on Monday. (Drove the loop twice- a casual 600 mile total this weekend. Oy vey!) That's like a million percent improvement, but before the new engine went in this was never really a thought I had. So I speculate:

A) The misalignment caused wear.
B) Popping out occurred from wear combined with increased engine output.
C) The force of the popping out upset my shift coupler.
D) The wear from misalignment and occasional holding-in up a hill now shows up in a slightly more common popping out than back before the new engine.

I can live with this for a few months now, and Phoenix is a go, (Kate and I are starting our life together, so there's no way we'll be taking the Honda,) and those months should give me enough time to pick a dang rebuilder already. I really want to wait and feel Chloe's setup.

Transaxle goes quiet and now right turn signals activate the horn,
Robbie
:scratch:
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145k miles with me.
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Re: Acute onset of warm 4th gear popping out…

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Apr 24, 2015 7:31 am

asiab3 wrote: I speculate:
A) The misalignment caused wear.
B) Popping out occurred from wear combined with increased engine output.
C) The force of the popping out upset my shift coupler.
D) The wear from misalignment and occasional holding-in up a hill now shows up in a slightly more common popping out than back before the new engine.
a) nah
b) nah
c) nah
d) nah

I speculate that the installation of the engine tapped the input shaft towards the front of the car and merely moved the assembly .00001mm further forward than 4th gear slider hub liked.

a) misalignment does not reach in deep enough
b) the torque load that drives the slider out of engagement is qualitative not quantitative, it needs but the existence of the torque, not a specific amount of torque.
c) those shift couplers get upset at installation because people invariably overtorque the nasty coarse screw against the abysmally cheep "roll-pin" style of I can't call it a nut.
d) shift into 4th gear engine off. How much longitudinal movement does the shifter have, as it remains in 4th? Now shift into 3rd. How much movement does the shifter have? Compare to the 1st/2nd gate. Let me know.
asiab3 wrote: Kate and I are starting our life together, so there's no way we'll be taking the Honda,
See, this makes perfect sense here.
asiab3 wrote: right turn signals activate the horn,
Robbie
:scratch:
Maybe this . . .
Colin

From August 20, 2014 9:44AM
"Re: Itinerant Air-Cooled Greetings from Minnesota"
The horn repair deserved more of a write-up, it was a fascinating case. Early style horn, symptom was that it would blow and blow without anyone's consent. We pretty much disassembled the horn button insulated screws, steering wheel, turn signal switch, steering shaft spring and bearing, plastic column insulator ring, column bracket and ignition switch housing and steering column tube from the floor, all in the service of discovering where on Earth was the horn finding its own ground?

Image

We found it just as we ran out of possible ideas. It is a doozy, too. The horn was finding a rogue ground path through a too-long-screw used in the turn signal switch. It was grounding the steering column tube through the switch body to this screw that was touching the dimmer relay ground wire terminal in the switch. Like I said, ain't this fascinatin'??
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: Acute onset of warm 4th gear popping out…

Post by asiab3 » Fri Aug 07, 2015 11:48 pm

I couldn't take it anymore. The drives above 55-60mph are easy enough, with 4th only popping out under heavy loads, but around town between 30mph and 50mph is brutal on all parts involved.

Drain plug, as Colin wanted to see during our appointment:

Image

This transaxle oil is approximately 10,000 miles old, and was changed last October.
At first, I thought that looked like a chunk! Like one of the three keys of a hub. Nope, just a coagulation of particulate swarf.

Image


The filings on my fingers showed how fine the particles really were:

Image


So a few months ago before the new engine was installed, I completely scrubbed the transaxle and undercarriage above it, under the impression that it would last forever, and I wanted it all clean like I remember the BobD bus being last year.

Brian of TheSamba took pictures, as he brought his '68 single cab truck over with an engine table… We proceeded to disconnect the control cables from the engine and dismount the three main points from the chassis/powertrain. We then, (using the second half of my Bentley as a shim,) pulled the entire assembly backwards until the CVs maxed out… That's right, we left every electrical connection in place, and only disconnected the battery ground strap. Howdy doody, this is a tight fit, but I can confirm that the nosecone of an 091 transaxle can come off with the power train roughly "in place." I say 091, because my factory rebuild uses bolts, not studs to mount the nose cone. The bolts leaving a "clean" mounting surface made this whole operation possible. A "real" quality 002 would have had studs to hold the nosecone on, and they would have protruded too far to pull the nosecone off without grinding it against the chassis.

Earlier that day, I power washed the underside of the car to remove any loose dust, and I was careful to remove the nosecone cover without hitting any undercoating, or worse, dirt! :salute:

The gasket pretty much ripped itself in half, so each mating surface got a rough outline of a gasket. Permatex Aviation was used to reseal after a thorough cleaning, and no leaks yet after 25 miles…

While I had the cover off, I measured .003" of wear in the mainsheet bearing housing, so I'm not going to even THINK about "razor-handing" the housing, since this transaxle is going in for a rebuild in four weeks. I removed the spring-loaded neutral gate while I was in there… Yesterday was an experiment to see:

a) if it is even POSSIBLE to do what we did . [hint, it is!]
b) if I should order the new trans without the spring-loaded 091 neutral gate. [hint, YES!]
c) if the spring-loaded neutral gate affects the popping out of gear. [hint, not exactly…]

Not exactly? Correct, the actual popping out hasn't changed, but I can feel the protest in gear through the shifter now, and I know when I can let off to save wear in the selector forks. Before, it was a sudden "WHAM!" out of gear. Now, if I rest a pinky on the shift knob, I can feel a vibration or throbbing moments before it pops, so I can apply pressure to keep it in gear up a hill or on the freeway.

I think it took us a total of six hours, three of which were Brian complaining about how precisely I laid out my parts on the paper towel…

RobbieGritFreeForNow…

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Re: Acute onset of warm 4th gear popping out…

Post by asiab3 » Sat Aug 08, 2015 8:41 am

Reading through this the day after, I don't think I enphasized how important it was NOT to allow the nosecone to touch the chassis and scrape dirt into the works. I also spent a spell wire brushing the parting line then cleaning it with a solvent rag.

I would NOT do this if the transaxle wasn't going for a rebuild in a few hundred miles.

I will say, however, that the amount of particle/sludge buildup in the nosecone was immense. I'm curious if any number of transaxle oil changes could ever get that out....

Oh, and it didn't pop out of fourth at all today... Figure that out......?

Robbie?
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Re: Acute onset of warm 4th gear popping out…

Post by hambone » Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:11 pm

I have been using a bungee for over a year now, oh the embarrassment. But I can't afford a $1500 trans right now.
It works but it's irritating.
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Re: Acute onset of warm 4th gear popping out…

Post by asiab3 » Sat Aug 08, 2015 1:56 pm

hambone wrote:I have been using a bungee for over a year now, oh the embarrassment. But I can't afford a $1500 trans right now.
It works but it's irritating.
I can't afford the trans either. But at the rate I drive equipment for work, combined with making a few "handyman" style calls around town, the new trans will pay for itself by the time it wears itself out next decade... :geek:

I won't use the bungee, because I refuse to wear the shift forks when it doesn't want to pop out of fourth. Hand-holding only for me, for now.

Bob, do you (or anybody else out there?) have a measurement of a stock bus shifter handle? Mine seems to be 3-4 inches shorter than my friend's '68. :scratch:

Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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