IRS Rear Wheel Bearing Repack/Replace

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Jaffa
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Re: IRS Rear Wheel Bearing Repack/Replace

Post by Jaffa » Wed Jun 10, 2015 11:51 pm

I removed one side seal, the inner one and replaced the grease with what I am using, Valvoline Valplex EP. The bearing I removed was a FAG one with one side seal??. I bought the bearings from a very reputable local VW parts house. The bearings originally come from Pacific Parts International in the US. But they are Chinese I think, bummer, we'll see how long they last.

The roller bearings are a different storey. One is genuine VW INA type with the floating outer race, the other is a GEOPARTS brand (again chinese). I couldn't get two the same from the supplier. The Geoparts bearing has a floating inner race. Any how, I tried the Geoparts bearing first as if it got busted I didn't mind. But I just could not get this bearing to fit the hub, it was too large and would not take in the bore chamfer!!. So put this aside and tried the genuine VW item, what a difference, this tapped in very nicely. Seals (Elring) in, axle in and the whole assembly went back together nicely. Torqued up the nut with my new 3/4" drive 46mm socket, sliding bar and large breaker bar using the weight calculation method. I'm pretty chuffed about how it all went, except for the bearings, I'm still a bit uneasy with the brand of inner ball one.

Btw the roller bearing measured ~62.15mm OD. The spec for the original is 62.02mm OD.

I have bought a full rear bearing kit for the drivers side. This has a NACHI 6207 C3 ball bearing and a Torrington Germany roller bearing. This roller bearing is also the floating inner type but measures out at ~62.02mm OD. I'll see how this goes.

Craig
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wcfvw69
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Re: IRS Rear Wheel Bearing Repack/Replace

Post by wcfvw69 » Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:04 am

The good news is to change those bearing again, won't be as much trouble. I avoid any bearing made in China, at the least the ones made for our old VW's. The quality is simply terrible to say the least. This site and The Samba clearly illustrate all the issues with the poor quality of the bearings.
1970 Westfalia bus. Stock 1776 dual port type 1 engine. Restored German Solex 34-3. Restored 205Q distributor, restored to factory appearance engine.

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Jaffa
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Re: IRS Rear Wheel Bearing Repack/Replace

Post by Jaffa » Thu Jun 18, 2015 10:44 pm

I'm hearing you wcfvw69!!
I've installed all the bearings and passed the local warrant of fitness. The outer Torrington brand bearing was ok to fit if a little tighter than the OEM VW one. The inner race slid in nicely. I won't change the roller bearings just yet but will keep an eye on them for wear/failure. They do run smoothly with no noise/bad running.
Craig

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wcfvw69
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Re: IRS Rear Wheel Bearing Repack/Replace

Post by wcfvw69 » Fri Jun 19, 2015 12:31 pm

Jaffa wrote:I'm hearing you wcfvw69!!
I've installed all the bearings and passed the local warrant of fitness. The outer Torrington brand bearing was ok to fit if a little tighter than the OEM VW one. The inner race slid in nicely. I won't change the roller bearings just yet but will keep an eye on them for wear/failure. They do run smoothly with no noise/bad running.
Hopefully, everything works out well for ya! I bought in desperation to get a bug up, some Autozone bearings made in China for the front wheels. 3k miles later, you would of thought they had 130k miles on them..

The rear bearing on my 70' bus were European made bearings from probably 20+ years ago. I looked the brand up on the internet and they were said to be quality bearings. When I tore down the rear bearings to inspect and grease them, they looked great. No real wear, no pitting and were as smooth as glass. I simply repacked them and I bet they run longer than I'll be around.. :)
1970 Westfalia bus. Stock 1776 dual port type 1 engine. Restored German Solex 34-3. Restored 205Q distributor, restored to factory appearance engine.

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Re: IRS Rear Wheel Bearing Repack/Replace

Post by kreemoweet » Fri Aug 07, 2015 6:31 pm

I'd like to add a few caveats/observations to the subject, pertaining to later Type 2 rear wheel bearings.

At some point, VW switched from the rollers-captive-to-inner-race style outer rear wheel bearings to rollers-captive-to-outer-race. I've seen suggestions that
this happened in the '73-'74 time frame. The Bentley manual was never updated to reflect that. I've never in the past 18 years encountered any supplier who had anything but the later-style bearings but evidently, according to his post above, Jaffa found one, and calls them "floating-outer-race" bearings.

Also at some point, VW switched to a larger OD spacer between the bearings, and it became the only spacer available new. Illustration at http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/291328.jpg Some repair manuals suggested that
new spacers should be installed as a matter of course when doing rear bearing work, and no doubt many were. But the thing is, that larger spacer cannot be
removed if one of the new-style outer roller bearings is in place. In fact, in such a situation, many of the procedures given in this tutorial are made inapplicable.
My '71 bus is in that boat, and when I went in to repack the bearings 16 yrs/60K miles ago, I said "Well piffle, 'jes gonna let it ride like that", and it's still OK back
there AFAICT.

On top of that, I've found that removing an inner roller bearing by tapping the outer race out will sometimes not be possible due to the construction of the rear
bearing housing. I've recently dismantled some '78 bearing housings, and the outer race of the ball bearing just barely extended past the housing ledge in a few
places - nowhere near enough to get a punch-grip on. The outer race width on these bearings was about 4.3 mm. I have a couple different makes of these ball
bearings, with outer race widths of 3.5 mm, and 5.4 mm. These bearing housings simply were not made to allow bearing removal by that method.

So, for anyone having the above difficulties, and not having a shop press with suitable mandrels available, I would suggest rigging up some 3/4 in.
threaded rod or a long bolt, some nuts, big washers (78 mm or so: the VW flywheel seal installers are just right) and a length of 1 1/4 in. Schedule 40 pipe (see note
below) to push the roller bearing out via its inner race. Anathema to some, perhaps, but I think the balls and races of that bearing are thick and sturdy enough to take it
without damage.

I would also suggest using a similar setup, using instead 2 in. Sched. 40 pipe, to pull the outer roller bearing out via it's outer race. I did that on the '78 housings, and
the bearings suffered no apparent damage whatever. Glad I was, since I hate using a hammer on any VW part, in any fashion.

Pipe Note: I used PVC pipe (the pressure-rated stuff, not foam-core DWV pipe). It's cheap, easy to cut precisely (with a standard pipe cutter), and strong enough
for the job it seems. The cut edge will tend to have a raised bur from the cutter and may need to be smoothed with sandpaper or a file. I think threaded pipe
nipples should be avoided for this task.
Jaffa wrote: The spec for the original is 62.02 mm OD.
I would be interested in seeing that spec. I have 5 different makes of roller bearings at hand, and every single one has an OD [greater than 62.1 mm] [EDIT: I must retract this statement, sorry. This may be true of one brand I had, but later measurements give a range of 62.00 mm - 62.06 mm. None seem to be perfectly round.]

EDIT to add: Those new, larger spacers mentioned above have been reported to also be .050 in. longer than the originals, and perhaps are necessary to use
with the new Genuine VW brake backing plates being sold all over, to avoid having the drum scrape on the plate.

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Amskeptic
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Re: IRS Rear Wheel Bearing Repack/Replace

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Aug 18, 2015 3:31 pm

kreemoweet wrote:I'd like to add a few caveats/observations to the subject, pertaining to later Type 2 rear wheel bearings.

At some point, VW switched from the rollers-captive-to-inner-race style outer rear wheel bearings to rollers-captive-to-outer-race. I've seen suggestions that this happened in the '73-'74 time frame.
My '71 bus is in that boat,

On top of that, I've found that removing an inner roller bearing by tapping the outer race out will sometimes not be possible due to the construction of the rear
bearing housing.
I am getting lost in the details here.

Full drum brake buses through 1970 had the sturdy roller bearings held in with circlips.

The composite brake drums, introduced in 1971 with the flat hubcaps, switched to flimsy outer roller bearing races that will be damaged if any effort is made to remove them. The rollers are not captive to the outer race on the later buses. The outer race is not retained with circlips.
Once the stub axle is tapped or pulled out, it is no big deal to remove inner ball bearing as we always have, remove the inner spacer, then the outer bearing.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,660 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 206,845 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 118,840 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 89,009 miles

kreemoweet
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Re: IRS Rear Wheel Bearing Repack/Replace

Post by kreemoweet » Tue Aug 18, 2015 10:53 pm

Amskeptic wrote: . . . details . . .
I know nothing about these "flimsy outer roller bearing races" of which you speak. The only sort of '71-on rear roller bearing I have seen, been able to procure, or seen
advertised for sale, since the late '90-ies, is as shown here: http://images.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/1067263.jpg

The rollers on that bearing are decidedly captive to the outer race. I've seen nothing obviously "flimsy" about them. Just last week I pressed two out of their housings,
with no observable ill effect. They were quite snug in there. The housings were said to be from a '78 bus.

If one has one of those bearings installed, as well as one of the larger-OD bearing spacers, then the inner ball bearing will have to be pressed out via the spacer and
the bearing's inner race. Nothing else is accessible. The spacer is captive., until one of the bearings is removed. I did that too, again with no observable ill effect. This method seems to be at variance with those in your tutorial.

On the housings I was dealing with, the inner diameter of the ball bearing seat/ledge was as-cast, was very uneven, and the bearing outer race only hung over it in a few
spots, to a very slight extent. I could not see tapping the bearing out in the manner you describe in the tutorial, even if I had had one of the original smaller-OD bearing
spacers and was able to pull it out. Perhaps VW decided to save a few ¢ by omitting a
machine operation there. Perhaps back in the day the outer races had a dimension that made that not a problem. The different ball bearings I have on hand differ
substantially in the width of the area one would normally press/tap to install/remove.

Capish?

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Re: IRS Rear Wheel Bearing Repack/Replace

Post by Amskeptic » Thu Aug 20, 2015 8:34 am

kreemoweet wrote:
Amskeptic wrote: . . . details . . .
I know nothing about these "flimsy outer roller bearing races" of which you speak.
Capish?
Bentley Manual "Transmission and Rear Axle" Procedure 10.5, Fig. 10.10 (Item #7 1971 and later models) #8 Disassembly text, "Only if the roller bearing assembly is damaged, drive out the roller bearing outer race."

Look at the illustration of the roller bearing-captive-inner race and the outer race that they caution you not to remove unless you have the replacement parts.

We need to find ourselves on the same page, capiche?
Colin :blackeye:
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,660 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 206,845 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 118,840 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 89,009 miles

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Re: IRS Rear Wheel Bearing Repack/Replace

Post by DugB » Fri Jul 29, 2016 7:59 pm

Argh, looks like I might be the next person digging into my rear bearings :-/ After our 9-day, 1600 mile road trip through New England a few weeks ago the bus started making a growling noise at higher speeds, e.g. between 50 and 60 MPH). The sound would go away if I veered to the right, and get louder if I veered to the left at that higher speed. I thought it might be a right front wheel bearing so I replaced the set and seal this evening, but the noise is still there. I haven't yet had a chance to jack up and check the rear wheels, but can't think of what else it would be (no noticeable noise heard from the driver's seat at low speeds, nor clunking at low speeds when taking turns).

Any thoughts on what it could be instead of bearings? I'm going to top up the tranny oil, if needed, while I'm under there.
Thanks!
- Doug :-/

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Re: IRS Rear Wheel Bearing Repack/Replace

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:21 am

DugB wrote:growling noise at higher speeds, louder if I veered to the left

I thought it might be a right front wheel bearing so I replaced the set and seal this evening, but the noise is still there.

Any thoughts on what it could be instead of bearings?
- Doug :-/
Sometimes a tire can cause what sounds like a bearing noise. If you rotate front-to-rear and the noise persists, then you are looking at a bearing replacement. It's fun.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,660 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 206,845 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 118,840 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 89,009 miles

DugB
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Re: IRS Rear Wheel Bearing Repack/Replace

Post by DugB » Fri Aug 05, 2016 10:03 pm

So maybe I jumped the gun instead of rotating those tires, and went straight for the rear wheel bearing replacement as I kinda wanted to try something new. I had all the right things for the job - new age I bearings and seals, grease, bearing/seal installation mandrels...the works. I got into it and didn't end up finding anything alarming...no nasty or dry bearings. I installed the new ones anyway just to learn the process and it went well...the axle went back in and turned smooth as butter. I took the opportunity to inspect and load a good amount more grease into the passenger side CVs...but still the growling noise occurs around 50mph, gets louder when I swerve to the left, almost disappears when I swerve to the right. At this point I've replaced both passenger side bearing sets, regressed and retorque do the passenger side CVs. I also checked the tranny oil and it's at the right level. If the tire rotation doesn't take care of it, is it worth doing the driver's side bearings? Thoughts?

Thanks!
- Doug :-)

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Re: IRS Rear Wheel Bearing Repack/Replace

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Aug 06, 2016 9:06 am

DugB wrote:So maybe I jumped the gun instead of rotating those tires, and went straight for the rear wheel bearing replacement as I kinda wanted to try something new. I had all the right things for the job - new age I bearings and seals, grease, bearing/seal installation mandrels...the works. I got into it and didn't end up finding anything alarming...no nasty or dry bearings. I installed the new ones anyway just to learn the process and it went well...the axle went back in and turned smooth as butter. I took the opportunity to inspect and load a good amount more grease into the passenger side CVs...but still the growling noise occurs around 50mph, gets louder when I swerve to the left, almost disappears when I swerve to the right. At this point I've replaced both passenger side bearing sets, regressed and retorque do the passenger side CVs. I also checked the tranny oil and it's at the right level. If the tire rotation doesn't take care of it, is it worth doing the driver's side bearings? Thoughts?

Thanks!
- Doug :-)
Get the tires out of the equation . . . !

Did you replace races on right front wheel bearing job?

The only bearing on the left side that could make the growl during a left swerve would be the left front outer bearing.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,660 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 206,845 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 118,840 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 89,009 miles

DugB
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Re: IRS Rear Wheel Bearing Repack/Replace

Post by DugB » Mon Aug 08, 2016 10:27 pm

Looks like you might be right again, Colin! I got around to the left front bearings today and found the rollers on the outer bearing to be pitted and rough...though I haven't driven it yet to check that bearing is the worst I've found so far, and seemingly likely to be the culprit.

I'm hoping that's the fix because the wife and I are planning a camping weekend in a few days...fingers crossed!

Thanks again!!
- Doug :-)

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Re: IRS Rear Wheel Bearing Repack/Replace

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Aug 10, 2016 11:17 pm

DugB wrote:Looks like you might be right again, Colin! I got around to the left front bearings today and found the rollers on the outer bearing to be pitted and rough...though I haven't driven it yet to check that bearing is the worst I've found so far, and seemingly likely to be the culprit.

I'm hoping that's the fix because the wife and I are planning a camping weekend in a few days...fingers crossed!

Thanks again!!
- Doug :-)
Forensics, my boy, forensics.

a) speedometer cable NOT sealed with caulk at the dust cap?

b) wheel bearings not packed since Gerald Ford was President?

c) somebody over-tightened the bearing adjustment?

Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,660 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 206,845 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 118,840 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 89,009 miles

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zabo
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Re: IRS Rear Wheel Bearing Repack/Replace

Post by zabo » Sat Aug 13, 2016 3:40 am

^ I buy a lot of stuff from WW, mainly because I can always count them shipping quickly and reliably.

That being said, I have no faith in Wolfsburg West hard rubber parts. All have failed on me within 2 years. Bump stops , beetle pan mount pads, windshield wipers etc... guess now i have to check the spring plate bushings again.
Not my favorite job.
60 beetle
78 bus

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