79 bay with apparent clutch failure

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airkooledchris
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79 bay with apparent clutch failure

Post by airkooledchris » Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:07 pm

I believe ive just experienced my first clutch failure.

A moment ago I drove up a hill and at the top I stopped for a light, and put the bus in neutral. The light turned green so I pressed the clutch pedal, which feels normal, but I can't get the bus into gear. If I try to push it it just starts to grind. I try it a few times and still nada, so I put on the hazzards and wave to the ppl behind me to go around.

I started trying other gears and ended up finding second. It didn't feel right going into second, like I was able to just barely pop it into place and then start rolling. I did this for two more stop signs, then I couldn't find second anymore - but I could get into third and fourth, but both feel strange like the clutch isn't really working - im just lucky enough to slip it into place where it grabs and then allows me to move.

We were only a few blocks from home so I limped it back here, and pulled it into the driveway. Out of curiousity I tried reverse, which has the same feel but I was able to get it into R, so I again tried 1st - can't, just grinds, 2nd won't go either, just grinds, but I can pop it just enough into third where it grabbed and I got it back up into the driveway.

Over the trek to Maupin and back I had this strange feeling like something was happening with the clutch. I can't pinpoint it, but it just didn't feel right, especially when it got warm. It was grinding pretty good just getting into the campsite when we arrived and I was trying to feather it up onto my leveling blocks.

The clutch pedal doesn't just drop to the floor, and there is resistance, so it isn't the cable.

Is this how a clutch 'goes' when it does?

Ive always wondered why ive never had to replace a clutch before. It's one of those things people always tell you to do when you drop the motor, but after the first few busses I stopped doing that. Why replace it if it still works?

Well now my bus is at the second half of a slanted driveway, behind the green bus that can't move until I finish putting this motor together and install it. I either have to suck it up and AAA it to the shop, or try and drop the motor on the slanted driveway.

Oh, and Colin will be here in 7 days. I already have a list of things I WANT to do, and replacing this clutch wasn't one of them.

Grrrrr.

Maybe I can get it into third one more time and pull it up onto the lawn far enough to find a flat spot. :pale:
1979 California Transporter

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Bleyseng
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Re: 79 bay with apparent clutch failure

Post by Bleyseng » Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:29 pm

When I had a clutch go it was "Bam" and no gears just lots of grinding trying to go into any gear. Petal felt weird too!
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
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Westy78
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Re: 79 bay with apparent clutch failure

Post by Westy78 » Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:00 pm

I'd double check that cable. Sometimes only a few strands can stretch or break without you feeling it and allow just enough slack as to not be able to pull the clutch arm far enough to disengage the clutch.
Chorizo, it's what's for breakfast.

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airkooledchris
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Re: 79 bay with apparent clutch failure

Post by airkooledchris » Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:22 pm

Thanks for the reply. Ill investigate further and report back my findings


Based on how it felt lately I'm not too hopeful but you never know
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SlowLane
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Re: 79 bay with apparent clutch failure

Post by SlowLane » Sun Jun 23, 2013 12:07 pm

Start with the easy stuff: adjust clutch cable play, paying attention to the bowden tube bend. (Bentley should have instruction on this). The adjustment wing-nut may be frozen on the cable thread if it's been a long time since it was last moved. Be patient.

Check cable for fraying. Replace if so. If there's no more adjustment left on the cable thread, it's stretched: replace. Always a good idea to have a quality spare clutch cable on-hand.

It goes without saying to be doubly careful if crawling under the car while it's on a slope.

If not the clutch cable adjustment, you're probably looking at an engine drop. Your symptoms suggest that the clutch disk might not be sliding freely on the input shaft splines. This causes the clutch disk to drag on the flywheel while you have the pedal depressed. Check for rust and/or grunge on the shaft spline and the disk splines. Clean until the disk slides freely on the shaft.

Of course, if the disk is sticking to the shaft, that could make pulling the engine somewhat tricky, since the engine won't want to part from the transaxle. One trick I've heard of is to separate the engine from the tranny just far enough to get a visual on the input shaft, the squirt the snot out of it with WD-40 or PB Blaster or Moovit or whatever. Of course, then you just might end up with a clutch disk contaminated with your favorite thread-loosener, so this is probably a last-resort sort of tactic.

While you have the clutch out, check the pilot bearing. Replace if necessary. Ditto for throwout bearing.

One other possibility is the clutch lever bushing. I think Neal has recent experience with this one.
'81 Canadian Westfalia (2.0L, manual), now Californiated

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Re: 79 bay with apparent clutch failure

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Jun 24, 2013 12:07 am

airkooledchris wrote:Thanks for the reply. Ill investigate further and report back my findings


Based on how it felt lately I'm not too hopeful but you never know
Chris, grab 1st gear with the engine off. Start engine with foot on the brake. Move car as necessary. Do not select a gear with engine running. I promise you, a clutch is cheap compared to damaging the transaxle.

Broken clutch strands still give a pedal, but do not allow full release. If it is engaging very close to the floor, it is likely broken strands. If it takes up in the usual place, then a sticking pilot bearing due to long trip heat and inadequate lubrication is a typical scenario.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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airkooledchris
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Re: 79 bay with apparent clutch failure

Post by airkooledchris » Mon Jun 24, 2013 7:05 pm

ok, the cable where it connects to that lever on the side of the transmission looks totally normal. It appears that it's near the end of it's adjustment already, with only a little ways to go before it bottoms out on the threaded part.

without the bus running and while depressing the clutch I can't get it into 1st or 2nd. I can find 3rd, 4th and reverse as long as the clutch is pressed in.

I took the e-brake off, put it in reverse and then slowly pressed in the clutch - and it didn't let go and start rolling freely until I was nearly to the floor with the pedal.

it's a minute away from downpouring rain here so it'll be put off another day - is the next step loosening the clutch cable up really far from the arm so there's slack, then undoing that connection under the pedal? will that show signs of wear that I can't see at the transmission end?
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Westy78
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Re: 79 bay with apparent clutch failure

Post by Westy78 » Mon Jun 24, 2013 9:04 pm

I've had two cables fail, both at the pedal end.
Chorizo, it's what's for breakfast.

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Re: 79 bay with apparent clutch failure

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:01 am

airkooledchris wrote: A) without the engine running and while depressing the clutch I can't get it into 1st or 2nd

B) didn't let go until nearly to the floor.

Cdammitit) it's a minute away from downpouring rain here

D) is the next step loosening the clutch cable up really far from the arm so there's slack, then undoing that connection under the pedal? will that show signs of wear that I can't see at the transmission end?
A) Adjustment issue at the stop plate due to *possible* spazmosis damage from the damn thing not giving you a gear out in traffic situation where you get a little tough on it to find a gear before everyone starts honking at you.

B) It is letting go within the range of travel, even if you are near end of threads on cable. We can shim the Bowden cable bracket at the transaxle to position the adjustment wingnut on the thread range.

C) Apparently, I am tracking a few trillion gallons of Pacific moisture behind me all over the West Coast.

D) You remove the wingnut so you can pull the pedal assembly free of the frame rail for access to the cable end/clevis. DISASSEMBLE, you cannot see the horrible bisecting of the pin until you have freed it. Re-assemble with lotso'moly.
ColinRainRainRAIN
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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airkooledchris
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Re: 79 bay with apparent clutch failure

Post by airkooledchris » Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:44 pm

A. This is exactly how it felt when *whatever it was* happened. The first moment of trying to get it into first at that stop light and it failing to go - is how it feels now. It just does it engine on or off, clutch in or out. Perhaps the stop plate itself is a source for the whole issue?

C. Thursday and Friday are still looking clear. (shh, don't anger the rain gods.) - it might be grey and 65*, but at least we've stayed dry all these years. At this point im hoping for that and will be thrilled with anything more...

D.
Transmission end:______________________ AND____________________________Pedal end:
ImageImage

I re-read Colins post above and I didn't disassemble the pedal end of the cable as far as (i think) he wants. It looks good to me, having never looked at this end of the cable before.



It's certainly possible that oil contamination caused the clutch to go? (if the other symptoms line up)
Image
1979 California Transporter

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airkooledchris
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Re: 79 bay with apparent clutch failure

Post by airkooledchris » Tue Jun 25, 2013 7:09 pm

I forgot to add this earlier, but I found that Luk sells direct through Amazon.

The usual places have this kit for nearly $200, but they sell it via Amazon direct for barely over $100:
http://www.amazon.com/LuK-17-010-Clutch ... B000CIAWMQ
1979 California Transporter

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boogie child
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Re: 79 bay with apparent clutch failure

Post by boogie child » Fri Jun 28, 2013 1:49 pm

Good find on the clutch kit. I just put one on order. My clutch just went out in the opposite way on my A/C 82 westy. It started slipping and catching and slipping as I was heading up and down the hills on I-5 into Medford OR.. I don't want to hijack your thread but while I have the tranny down who sells the best kit with all the seals and gaskets if there is one. And is there anything else I should always do while I have the tranny down.
82 2.0 air cooled the boogie bus

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Re: 79 bay with apparent clutch failure

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Jun 29, 2013 11:14 pm

Chris and I have some news to resolve this thread. I have run out of time, so Chris?

boogie child, there are all number of things you *could* do with the transmission down or the whole assembly out. Cleaning everything. Repacking the CV joints, comes to mind.

Kits with seals and gaskets, for the transaxle? Long Enterprises?
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Bleyseng
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Re: 79 bay with apparent clutch failure

Post by Bleyseng » Sun Jun 30, 2013 6:19 am

At the bare minimum replace the output shaft seal and axle flange seals.....
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

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airkooledchris
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Re: 79 bay with apparent clutch failure

Post by airkooledchris » Sun Jun 30, 2013 4:16 pm

Colin has the picture to prove it, but it wasn't the clutch.

We hoped that the problems with my shift linkage (and PO hacks to make it work) were causing issues with getting into first and second.
A failed attempt at a test drive sent us back under the bus, this time to try and manually shift the bus into gear and bypassing the shift linkage problems - but alas no 1st or second.

When we went to use Reverse to get the bus backed into the driveway - Reverse was now missing also.

It was the transmission. It's totally screwed, technically speaking.

Luckily I have another bus waiting to be put back on the road - so we robbed the transmission from it. The replacement transmission was given some fresh oil - and just before installing it into the bus we noticed that the input shaft seems loose? really loose? ok, it can be pulled out completely without resistance.

The clock was ticking to get this all installed - and addressing this input shaft wasn't in the cards, so we mated it to the engine anyway and raised the motor/trans as a unit to get it back in the bus and complete a quick test drive.

I now have 4 forward and 1 reverse gear again, though a transmission rebuild is now needed before I can get the green bus back on the road (once im done assembling it's engine)

It was one of those days where anything that can go wrong, did (it seemed).
1979 California Transporter

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