Clutch Slipping, I think

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whc03grady
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Clutch Slipping, I think

Post by whc03grady » Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:08 pm

Trying to help a family stuck here. Bus is a 1970 with a 1973 engine, possibly out of a Beetle.
Anyway, he said it had no power. I arrived and hopped in, the clutch pedal had an assload of play. "This'll be easy", I thought and we got to tightening the wing nut at the lever. The play got better but the symptom remained: all the rpms in the world and it barely inched, crept along. Tightened it some more. Now on starting there's a grinding/squeaking. That's too much, backed it off some. The play at the pedal is now 13mm or so, right in range, but the 'no power' persists. The engine itself runs a little rough but not horrible.
Bentley calls this slipping, right? When it feels like a no power issue but really it's a clutch engagement issue? Also, Bentley said a too-straight or too-bowed Bowden tube is symptomatic of a *grabbing*, not a slipping, clutch.
Are we looking at a clutch disc replacement?
Ludwig--1974 Westfalia, 2.0L (GD035193), Solex 34PDSIT-2/3 carburetors.
Gertie--1971 Squareback, 1600cc with Bosch D-Jetronic fuel injection from a '72 (E brain).
Read about their adventures:
http://www.ludwigandgertie.blogspot.com

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Re: Clutch Slipping, I think

Post by Amskeptic » Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:02 pm

whc03grady wrote:
Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:08 pm
Trying to help a family stuck here. Bus is a 1970 with a 1973 engine, possibly out of a Beetle.
Anyway, he said it had no power. I arrived and hopped in, the clutch pedal had an assload of play. "This'll be easy", I thought and we got to tightening the wing nut at the lever. The play got better but the symptom remained: all the rpms in the world and it barely inched, crept along. Tightened it some more. Now on starting there's a grinding/squeaking. That's too much, backed it off some. The play at the pedal is now 13mm or so, right in range, but the 'no power' persists. The engine itself runs a little rough but not horrible.
Bentley calls this slipping, right? When it feels like a no power issue but really it's a clutch engagement issue? Also, Bentley said a too-straight or too-bowed Bowden tube is symptomatic of a *grabbing*, not a slipping, clutch.
Are we looking at a clutch disc replacement?
The clutch should engage around mid-travel with free play at 13mm. Sounds like this clutch is worn out and that makes it engage too close to the top of the travel. That is when people dial in an assload of play, to make it engage in the middle again. Sorry. That is cheating. Your clutch is engaging high up because the disk is skinny.

Pull the engine and replace the disk. It can be done by lunch.
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .110,334 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 205,625 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . 72,350 miles,
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,478 miles

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Re: Clutch Slipping, I think

Post by sgkent » Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:22 pm

Are we looking at a clutch disc replacement?
That is the assumption I would make. It can also be the disk came apart or the throwout bearing blew up. Either was you are going to be replacing the disk and TO, maybe pressure plate too but many times they can be reused rather than rolling the dice on a new Chinese reproduction that goes bad in 500 miles.
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Re: Clutch Slipping, I think

Post by SlowLane » Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:02 am

sgkent wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:22 pm
whc03grady wrote:Are we looking at a clutch disc replacement?
That is the assumption I would make.
I think that's the minimum assumption we should make. If the disk has worn down to the rivets, then it may be machining a nice circular groove into the flywheel and/or pressure plate.

If that is the case, then you and the owner will have to make a decision on whether to just put in a new disk with a lightly-scuffed-but-still-groovy flywheel and pressure plate (it will still work, albeit slightly less efficiently due to the reduced contact area). Or do it properly with either a new or refaced flywheel (depending on how deep the groove is) and new pressure plate.

The Luk brand pressure plates seem to have better reviews than the Sachs recently. But either way, resist the temptation to use an inexpensive Chinese plate, because you'll be back in there replacing it in short order when the spring fails.

Also, I've always wondered: "whcO3", wahzzat? Tungsten hydrocarbon-trioxide or sump'n?
'81 Canadian Westfalia (2.0L, manual), now Californiated

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Re: Clutch Slipping, I think

Post by sgkent » Sun Aug 13, 2017 12:08 pm

be aware that the flywheel should be inspected when it is exposed. Stock ones are made of cast iron on T4 engines and heat cracks cannot be tolerated.

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Re: Clutch Slipping, I think

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:42 am

SlowLane wrote:
Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:02 am
Also, I've always wondered: "whcO3",
wahzzat? Tungsten hydrocarbon-trioxide or sump'n?
Sounds good, I'm going with that.
Colin :drunken:
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .110,334 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 205,625 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . 72,350 miles,
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,478 miles

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Re: Clutch Slipping, I think

Post by whc03grady » Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:41 pm

Wolfsburg Hurricane Club, established in 1991. I am the third member (of three total), President for life, and, at the time, was the member who drove a Type 3.
Despite being much more mechanically inclined than myself, whc01melcher (formerly 1963 Beetle (2nd owner); 1974 Super; 1971 Beetle) and whc02mcdonald (formerly 1974 Campmobile (he owned Ludwig immediately previous to Melissa and me); 1973 Super; 1960 Single Cab; 1961 Double-Door Delivery) have largely moved on from ACVWs. whc01melcher runs a landscaping business so most of his wrenching is on that kind of equipment, though he has an FJ40 he drives once in a while. He still owns that '63, but it doesn't run. whc02mcdonald is a destructive testing engineer at Airbus and also has an FJ40. (The Club's charter explicitly states I'm not allowed to own a 4x4 vehicle otherwise I'd like an FJ40 as well, if prices weren't ridiculous now.)
Ludwig--1974 Westfalia, 2.0L (GD035193), Solex 34PDSIT-2/3 carburetors.
Gertie--1971 Squareback, 1600cc with Bosch D-Jetronic fuel injection from a '72 (E brain).
Read about their adventures:
http://www.ludwigandgertie.blogspot.com

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Re: Clutch Slipping, I think

Post by bus71 » Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:26 am

I used a Luk clutch kit for the spare 1600sp in my 71 bus and it worked fine. This engine/ clutch is now in my son's Baja and doing fine. I did use my og German t/o bearing. Good luck!

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Re: Clutch Slipping, I think

Post by whc03grady » Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:21 am

The engine came out without much trouble. Actually, scratch that. It came out with more trouble than one would expect for a model with the removable rear apron. The culprit was a WTF "nut" on the upper DS engine/transaxle mount. Has anyone ever seen this? It was freaking round:
Image
So we dropped the engine and transaxle as a unit.
Clutch disk was thin; a 7 mm wrench just barely fit. The pressure plate exhibited some bluing through about 160 degrees of arc. Also, the ring was loose on the springs. I suspect this was the issue. We replaced the plate, disk, throwout bearing, engine mounts (one was sheared in half). I've striven mightily to get him to avail himself of the IAC's personal and web-based services.
Engine went back in relatively smoothly. Jeff is attaching peripherals (clutch cable, trx/body ground, new fuel hose, et al. today and we'll do valves (it's been 7,000 miles!) tonight. I'll report back.
Ludwig--1974 Westfalia, 2.0L (GD035193), Solex 34PDSIT-2/3 carburetors.
Gertie--1971 Squareback, 1600cc with Bosch D-Jetronic fuel injection from a '72 (E brain).
Read about their adventures:
http://www.ludwigandgertie.blogspot.com

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Re: Clutch Slipping, I think

Post by bus71 » Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:44 am

The round nut should be a captive nut. It should lock into the case. May have stripped? Maybe some locktite and new nut? These were used because doghouse cooler made access to standard nut difficult.

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Re: Clutch Slipping, I think

Post by whc03grady » Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:55 am

bus71 wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:44 am
The round nut should be a captive nut. It should lock into the case. May have stripped? Maybe some locktite and new nut? These were used because doghouse cooler made access to standard nut difficult.
But the bolt is semi-locked as well, by virtue of a notch in the bell housing. I could've gotten to a regular nut easily.
The round nut isn't stripped.
Ludwig--1974 Westfalia, 2.0L (GD035193), Solex 34PDSIT-2/3 carburetors.
Gertie--1971 Squareback, 1600cc with Bosch D-Jetronic fuel injection from a '72 (E brain).
Read about their adventures:
http://www.ludwigandgertie.blogspot.com

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Re: Clutch Slipping, I think

Post by SlowLane » Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:15 pm

whc03grady wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:55 am
bus71 wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:44 am
The round nut should be a captive nut. It should lock into the case. May have stripped? Maybe some locktite and new nut? These were used because doghouse cooler made access to standard nut difficult.
But the bolt is semi-locked as well, by virtue of a notch in the bell housing. I could've gotten to a regular nut easily.
The round nut isn't stripped.
I think that you have encountered an unfortunate confluence of 1970 transaxle (which has the bolt-retention notch to facilitate spinning on the nut from the non-doghouse 1970 engine side) and the built-in nut of the 1973 doghouse engine (which would have been mated to a Beetle transaxle that didn't have the bolt-retaining notch). Lucky you.

For this combination, going forward, it would probably be best to file away the bolt-retaining notch in the transaxle (so the bolt head can be turned freely) and embed a captured nut in the engine flange (to avoid having to try and get a wrench or fingers down behind the dog-house.
'81 Canadian Westfalia (2.0L, manual), now Californiated

"Wisdom comes from experience. Experience is often a result of lack of wisdom."
- Terry Pratchett

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Re: Clutch Slipping, I think

Post by SlowLane » Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:23 pm

whc03grady wrote:
Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:41 pm
Wolfsburg Hurricane Club, established in 1991. I am the third member (of three total), President for life, and, at the time, was the member who drove a Type 3.
whc01melcher ... has an FJ40 he drives once in a while.
whc02mcdonald ... also has an FJ40.
(The Club's charter explicitly states I'm not allowed to own a 4x4 vehicle otherwise I'd like an FJ40 as well, if prices weren't ridiculous now.)
Ah, makes perfect sense now... One of the more interesting stories behind chosen monikers.

Y'know, as club president, you have the power to change the rules of the club charter. So i think you ought to do so, get yourself a lovely little Iron Pig FJ55 and show up those boys with their FJ40 toys.
'81 Canadian Westfalia (2.0L, manual), now Californiated

"Wisdom comes from experience. Experience is often a result of lack of wisdom."
- Terry Pratchett

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Re: Clutch Slipping, I think

Post by sgkent » Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:40 pm

SlowLane wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 1:15 pm
whc03grady wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:55 am
bus71 wrote:
Wed Aug 16, 2017 11:44 am
The round nut should be a captive nut. It should lock into the case. May have stripped? Maybe some locktite and new nut? These were used because doghouse cooler made access to standard nut difficult.
But the bolt is semi-locked as well, by virtue of a notch in the bell housing. I could've gotten to a regular nut easily.
The round nut isn't stripped.
I think that you have encountered an unfortunate confluence of 1970 transaxle (which has the bolt-retention notch to facilitate spinning on the nut from the non-doghouse 1970 engine side) and the built-in nut of the 1973 doghouse engine (which would have been mated to a Beetle transaxle that didn't have the bolt-retaining notch). Lucky you.

For this combination, going forward, it would probably be best to file away the bolt-retaining notch in the transaxle (so the bolt head can be turned freely) and embed a captured nut in the engine flange (to avoid having to try and get a wrench or fingers down behind the dog-house.
wouldn't the captive nut been inside the engine bay so that that bolt pulled the case and trans together from the trans side, and engine bay side? Below is a 1971 dog house case. The top bolt on the starter side is the D bolt, and the one on the other side is a regular bolt as I recall although I did see an occasional one that had a pressed in captive nut on the engine bay side.

Image
Thank You -

Merlin The Wrench

Machine Work/Shop Recommendations: http://kentcomputer.com/77VW/machinework.pdf

Pointers on rebuilding an engine: http://kentcomputer.com/77VW/rebuilding_a_vw_engine.pdf

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Re: Clutch Slipping, I think

Post by sgkent » Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:41 pm

duplicate
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Machine Work/Shop Recommendations: http://kentcomputer.com/77VW/machinework.pdf

Pointers on rebuilding an engine: http://kentcomputer.com/77VW/rebuilding_a_vw_engine.pdf

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