2.1 WaterCooled Heads ~ check, reseal... rebuild?

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Lanval
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2.1 WaterCooled Heads ~ check, reseal... rebuild?

Post by Lanval » Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:19 pm

When Colin arrived this summer, I had acquired the new rig which was to replace the old 82. It seemed like a good idea at the time, but that has now worn off.

The interior is relatively de-ratted (two rat heads in the air box area; air box was a rat's nest ~ literally! See the pix from Colin's visit to Irvine). Lot O' mouse poop and a couple of dead mice. That's (mostly) cleaned out.

Engine got up and running at a local shop, passed smog (the apartment Co. here threatened to tow it without tags), but quickly developed a serious leak on the driver's side head.

The engine and bay smells like a big rat's ass, so working on it is a bit funky. Still, the van seems to want to run. Totally rat-eaten wires, and not only did Colin get it running in 30 minutes after the thing sat in a field for 7 years (!), but amazingly stuff works. Had to drive it to work in the rain, and hit the rear wiper to see if it worked. Not only did it work, fluid came out of the rear wiper container in a strong stream!

OK; order various parts from VanCafe for Colin's visit. Will arrange back up heads/engine this week (one of the beauties of living here in SoCal is that doing so is easy; AND I live about 15 minutes from RIMCO). Here are the first pix of the opening of the black box.

Passenger side at the start:

http://picasaweb.google.com/lathropMA/D ... 3897810898

Passenger side after removing major parts:

http://picasaweb.google.com/lathropMA/D ... 2856471378

Driver's side at the start:

http://picasaweb.google.com/lathropMA/D ... 8474983378

Driver's side after removing/moving major parts:


http://picasaweb.google.com/lathropMA/D ... 0902964802

Overview of engine after the first day:

http://picasaweb.google.com/lathropMA/D ... 2711437650

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satchmo
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Post by satchmo » Mon Nov 08, 2010 11:10 pm

I'm not gonna stake my already shaky reputation on it, but looking at your pictures I think you have a 1.9 liter engine set up (82-85 Vanagon) rather than the 2.1 liter (86-91 Vanagon). Just sayin.

The heads on either the 1.9 or the 2.1 don't have the kinds of problems the air cooled heads do (like receding valve seats, dropped seats, or burnt valves) because they are water cooled. However, they can get some nasty pitting at the head to case sealing surface which can make them unusable for a rebuild without major welding and machining.

The bottom end of the 1.9 liter engine is a little more stout than the 2.1 though. That is because the 2.1 came with stretch bolts for the connecting rods, and they have a bad habit of breaking if the bearings overheat (like when you are going up a big hill on a hot day...).

Tim
By three methods we may learn wisdom:
First, by reflection, which is noblest;
second, by immitation, which is easiest;
and third, by experience, which is bitterest. -Confucius

Lanval
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Post by Lanval » Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:31 am

Well, I won't claim any expertise here. I actually liked it originally because it was an 85 GL, and I figured I'd rather have the 1.9 for the reasons you mention.

The owner said that he'd had the original 1.9 replaced with a 2.1. I asked Colin about it, and he said that the engine mgmt stuff is all 1.9, or should be generally, since the engine just does what it's told.

I'll cross post this over at the Samba with a specific request as to how one verifies things. I'm hoping to have the heads off Wednesday, so we'll see what we see at that point.

ML

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tristessa
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Post by tristessa » Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:39 pm

If the motor's been rebuilt, all bets are off as to what it is. Engine number, part number of the case, details of the case that differentiate the 1.9 and 2.1 mean nothing. They might give clues, but you need to get inside the engine to tell for certain what you've got.

Measure the stroke while the heads are off. :cyclopsani:
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Lanval
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Post by Lanval » Wed Nov 10, 2010 10:57 pm

Day Two, and a potential issue:

I removed the intake header in order to get them out of the way before attacking the smog and fluid systems.

When I did, I noticed that some of the resident crap around the intake header fell into the holes ~ a few rat pellets, dirt, etc.

I've covered the opening lightly with some packing tape to keep additional garbage out; my question is this:

Do I need to worry about crap (literally in this case) getting into the cylinders when I take off the head? If so, what do I clean the top of the head and engine with? I was going to use simply green, but figured putting that into the head/cylinder might be worse than just some dry poop...

My first thought is a vacuum; don't think the wife will let me use our house vacuum though. Maybe a cheap shop vac? Suggestions? Here's the pix:

http://picasaweb.google.com/lathropMA/D ... 1330450562

http://picasaweb.google.com/lathropMA/D ... 6649355362

Note: The darker specks are on top of the tape. See the light brown ovals? Those are dried rat poops sitting in the header opening... ugh.

Overall view of the engine, slightly more stripped than before:

http://picasaweb.google.com/lathropMA/D ... 2974502946

and finally, the driver's side head, drained:

http://picasaweb.google.com/lathropMA/D ... 7861006306

Best,

L.

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satchmo
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Post by satchmo » Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:12 pm

Reach down in there with a rag or stick with something sticky, like a little grease, and get the big chunks out. Then clean up after that with some carb cleaner on a cotton swab. No biggie.

It is metal things, like bolt, nuts and washers, that you don't want to go down into the intake. Stuff some paper towels into those intakes.

Tim
By three methods we may learn wisdom:
First, by reflection, which is noblest;
second, by immitation, which is easiest;
and third, by experience, which is bitterest. -Confucius

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Sylvester
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Post by Sylvester » Thu Nov 11, 2010 6:57 am

Ke-Rap! Look at all that room! I think you could fit down in there if needed.

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Up, up the long, delirious, burning blue, I’ve topped the wind-swept heights with easy grace. Where never lark, or even eagle flew. And, while with silent, lifting mind I've trod, The high untrespassed sanctity of space, Put out my hand, and touched the face of God.

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Amskeptic
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Post by Amskeptic » Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:10 am

Lanval wrote:Day Two,
Do I need to worry about crap (literally in this case) getting into the cylinders when I take off the head?
Since the heads are coming off, you do not need to worry so much. BUT, proper business practices dictate that you get into the habit of cleaning before disassembly, and covering your exposed orifices with rags towels or tape (especially when you are opening up any part of the lubrication system). It takes no time at all to spray the intake runners where they meet the heads, wipe and then disassemble. In other circumstances (Sylvester for example, just replacing the intake manifold), you would hate to drop crap down there.

As mentioned by satchmo, soft organic mouse crap is only a health hazard to us, the engine would not care. Nuts and bolts and screws, on the other hand . . . . always keep a count of how many screws nuts bolts are on an assembly, and recount when it is off. Any missing fasteners then mean you have a chance to find them and stave off trouble.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

Lanval
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Post by Lanval » Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:23 am

From The Samba:

"I just put 2.1 heads on my 1.9 all the same from what I learned. Don't be afraid to smack those heads with a rubber mallet when you are taking them off. Last thing you want to do is pull those cylinders out like I did. There is a good Youtube video of the procedure although he has the motor out I think that is cheating." (edited)

I'll check out the video; is the above technique sound? I have a rubber mallet, and this seems like a good way to dislodge the heads...

L.

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Amskeptic
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Post by Amskeptic » Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:29 am

Lanval wrote:From The Samba:

"Don't be afraid to smack those heads
Last thing you want to do is pull those cylinders out like I did."
:cyclopsani:
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

Lanval
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Post by Lanval » Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:14 pm

Bought a wet/dry shop vac in order to clean up the engine around the intakes, and suck out any remaining juice from the heads.

Getting the exhaust off was painful.

Draining the coolant was not painful.

Here's how it looks now, ready to take the heads off today:

Driver's Side
http://picasaweb.google.com/lathropMA/D ... 4801046706

and passenger Side
http://picasaweb.google.com/lathropMA/D ... 0699672258

Overview
http://picasaweb.google.com/lathropMA/D ... 8982885330

Additional question while we're here. The rear heater is leaking from the vertical connection immediately to the left of the large six sided bolt on top. Does this suggest an O-ring/seal (I don't know what's in there) or is the unit bad?

I've looked at this: Is it the right one for that thing?

http://www.van-cafe.com/home/van/page_2 ... _ring.html

Or, do I need a whole new valve? Do I have to open it up to figure it out?
valve here:
http://www.van-cafe.com/home/van/page_2 ... valve.html

L.

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satchmo
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Post by satchmo » Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:06 pm

Lanval wrote:
Additional question while we're here. The rear heater is leaking from the vertical connection immediately to the left of the large six sided bolt on top. Does this suggest an O-ring/seal (I don't know what's in there) or is the unit bad?

I've looked at this: Is it the right one for that thing?

http://www.van-cafe.com/home/van/page_2 ... _ring.html

Or, do I need a whole new valve? Do I have to open it up to figure it out?
valve here:
http://www.van-cafe.com/home/van/page_2 ... valve.html

L.
Are you sure the leak is between the valve and the body of the heater core? If so, the o-ring you reference above is what you need, not the whole valve.

With that said, leaking from the heater core is pretty common, so you might want to open up the fan housing and take a look to see if you need a new core before you order the o-ring (and be disappointed when it still leaks). I had to replace the core on my 87, and to be complete, I replaced the valve and o-ring at the same time.

Tim
By three methods we may learn wisdom:
First, by reflection, which is noblest;
second, by immitation, which is easiest;
and third, by experience, which is bitterest. -Confucius

Lanval
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Post by Lanval » Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:43 pm

It only leaks a bit ~ from a thimbleful to an ounce or so. It definitely comes out of the diamond shaped flange.

I'll order the O-ring, but I'll check the heater core when Colin's here to see if he thinks it looks OK.

Best,

L.

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Amskeptic
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Post by Amskeptic » Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:04 am

Lanval wrote:It only leaks a bit ~ from a thimbleful to an ounce or so. It definitely comes out of the diamond shaped flange.

I'll order the O-ring, but I'll check the heater core when Colin's here to see if he thinks it looks OK.

Best,

L.
I couldn't tell you without a radiator shop's pressure tester.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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