The Green Oil

Moderators: Sluggo, Amskeptic

User avatar
Hippie
IAC Addict!
Location: 41º 35' 27" N, 93º 37' 15" W
Status: Offline

Post by Hippie » Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:31 pm

Amskeptic wrote: . . . I have put almost 200,000 miles on the Road Warrior since then.
And how many since early-mid 2005 when the SL service ran out?

I'm not too worried about the zinc in the Brad Penn, either, but it is supposed to be excellent oil.
No leaks yet


Graph on page 2 here seems that .08% zinc (new oil) can do up to 600 lbs spring load.
Link

Kinda sorry I started this thread, I didn't want it to turn into the old, old, old, old zinc/lifter debate. But then, I'm contributing to it.

User avatar
chitwnvw
Resident Troublemaker
Location: Chicago.
Status: Offline

Post by chitwnvw » Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:44 pm

Refresh me, what is the zinc supposed to do?

User avatar
Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
Status: Offline

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Apr 30, 2010 8:36 pm

chitwnvw wrote:Refresh me, what is the zinc supposed to do?
Excellent anti-scuffing properties . . . .

Here's erosion when lead babbit gets attacked:

Image
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

User avatar
Mark
Getting Hooked!
Location: Sooke, BC
Contact:
Status: Offline

Post by Mark » Fri Apr 30, 2010 9:01 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
chitwnvw wrote:Refresh me, what is the zinc supposed to do?
Excellent anti-scuffing properties . . . .

Here's erosion when lead babbit gets attacked:

Image

Eeek!
'64 Sedan
'74 Westy
aka the "Hoover Bit" repro guy

User avatar
Hippie
IAC Addict!
Location: 41º 35' 27" N, 93º 37' 15" W
Status: Offline

Post by Hippie » Sat May 01, 2010 5:18 am

Amskeptic wrote: Here's erosion when lead babbit gets attacked:
[picture]
Youch. Are we sure this is from plain old 1100-1200 ppm zinc oil with no additives?
The ad pack is supposed to have neutralizers in it, and I've never heard of a problem until we get over 2000 ppm.
Could it be acids from combustion or a combination?
I've pulled apart a few old VW engines that have been sitting for several years and got nothing but smooth, oily bearings out.

Veddy interestinck.
chitwnvw wrote:Refresh me, what is the zinc supposed to do?
What Colin said. It's a heat activated, anti-wear ingredient in motor oil (actually its the phosphorous attached to the zinc molecule in the ZDDP or ZDP that does the work.)
It reduces catalytic convertor life, so in '04 the EPA/API reduced the cap back down to 800 ppm from about 1200 ppm.
Some cams/lifters have been wearing flat in high lift, high valve spring pressure, and/or qustionable aftermarket metalurgy quality pushrod engines with flat, (sliding rather than modern rolling type) cam followers...since that's the point in an engine where there is usually the most opportunity for extreme pressure concentrated metal to metal contact...particularly during initial break-in.

User avatar
Bleyseng
IAC Addict!
Location: Seattle again
Contact:
Status: Offline

Post by Bleyseng » Sun May 02, 2010 3:17 am

From HodRod mag:
"Flat Tappet Cam Tech - Righting the Wrongs
Flat tappet cams have been failing at an alarming rate lately. We dig into what causes these failures, how to fix them and how to prevent future failures.
From the February, 2009 issue of Hot Rod
By Marlan Davis

For the last several years, many engine builders and individual hotrodders have experienced a raft of seemingly unexplained flat-tappetcamshaft lobe failures. As one engine builder puts it, "I've failed morecams in the last three years than I have in the last 30." There areseveral theories as to the primary causes of these failures, and withall the usual finger pointing and blame game such unfortunate episodesinevitably generate, the result has been a muddying of the waters that'sleft average hot rodders confused and uncertain as to the best course ofaction. What's the real source of the failures, and more importantly,rather than whining over spilled oil, what can be done to minimize theoccurrence of these failures? Various parties have blamed camshaftmanufacturing quality control, inferior flat-tappet lifters, theaggressiveness of today's modern cam profiles, and engine oilformulation as the primary factors behind the failures. What we know forsure is that the most serious complaints have cropped up within the lastthree years or so, around the time that major changes occurred in boththe flat-tappet manufacturing industry and in the formulation ofpassenger car and light-duty truck motor oils.

The Great Lifter Shortage

New automobile manufacturers basically call the tune when it comes tosupplier capacity and even motor oil composition due to the OEMs' hugeproduction volumes in comparison to aftermarket requirements. Flattappets are not used in today's new cars. All current pushrod enginesuse roller tappets, while overhead-cam motors use either rolling orsliding tappets. From the standpoint of the traditional lifter-supplycompanies, five years ago it looked like there was no future in theflat-tappet lifter business -- the projected volume was insufficient tojustify investing in new tooling and equipment.

As Survival Motorsports'Barry Rabotnick puts it, "Go back five years ago and there were a bunchof U.S. companies making flat-tappet lifters -- Eaton, Delphi [GM],Stanadyne, and Hylift [Johnson]. Within about a three-month window, twoout of the four went out of business. Eaton decided it no longer wantedto be in the flat-tappet business --there was no volume -- and it soldout to Stanadyne, which initially added no capacity and in fact shutEaton's line down. Hylift -- the premiere supplier of Johnson lifters tomajor cam companies as well as aftermarket suppliers such asFederal-Mogul -- went through one of those corporate scandals we'vesadly become all too familiar with before going bankrupt."

This led tothe flat-tappet lifter shortage the industry experienced several yearsago. GM was still in business, but it made lifters primarily for GMproducts, and they were pricey. As a major OEM supplier, Stanadyne hadother fish to fry and initially did not increase its flat-tappetproduction capacity. Cheap, poorly made offshore lifters flooded in totake up the slack. Most of these inferior lifters had questionablemetallurgy, a poor surface finish, and an improper crown radius. Butthey were affordable and available.

Major cam companies, including Compand Crane, maintain that they never sacrificed lifter quality or soldinferior lifters. "We figured we were better off selling nothing thanselling junk," says Crane's Chase Knight. Yet some engine buildersinsist there was a definite durability difference in lifters producedprior to '01 compared to some later production runs. At present, GMcontinues in business with a good lifter, Stanadyne has finally gearedup again (it currently has about 70 percent of the lifter market), andJohnson is back in business. But the off shore stuff still permeates themarket, and many budget hot rodders are tempted to use them even onname-brand cams because the price is so low compared to the qualityU.S.-made parts. Unfortunately, without lifter disassembly, it's nearlyimpossible for the average hot rodder to identify its manufacturer --and, hence, its quality. One exception is genuine GM/ACDelco/Delphitappets.


Around the time of the flat-tappet lifter shortage, motor oil was experiencing its own changes. Engines with flat-tappet cams haveextremely high pressure loading at the contact point between the liftercrown and the cam lobe. According to Mark Ferner, team leader for QuakerState Motor Oil Research and Development, "Even stock passenger cars cansee pressure in excess of 200,000 psi at the point of flat-tappet/camlobe contact." To prevent excess wear, traditional motor oil included agenerous dose of antiwear additives, primarily zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZDDP). "The chemistry is such that the additive is acombination of zinc and phosphorous," says Rockett Racing Fuel's TimWusz. "Typically the phosphate amounts are about 75 percent of the zincamounts. For example, if there was 0.100 percent zinc by weight in themotor oil, then the phosphate is about 0.075."

Ferner adds, "The zincreacts with the cam lobe's iron surface. That creates a sacrificialchemical coating strong enough to keep parts separated to reduce thewear." Although great for keeping a flat tappet alive, as an engine agesand develops blow-by, some of the additives flow out the exhaust wherethey can degrade oxygen sensor and catalytic converter performance.Faced with ever more stringent emissions standards and the governmentalmandate for extended emissions-control- system warranties, the OEMs gottogether with the motor oil makers and decided to reduce the amount of ZDDP in street-legal, gasoline-engine motor oils. After all, theyweren't needed with modern roller lifters and overhead-cam followers.The reduction first started in the mid-'80s, and it has been a gradualprocess, but the latest API SM and GF-4 specs have reduced ZDDP contentto such an extent that the new oils may not provide adequate protectionfor older, flat-tappet-equipped vehicles running nonstock, performancecams and valvetrains. And it will only get worse; projected future oilspec revisions will likely reduce ZDDP content even more."

My question is "What oil was used that did the damage to the bearings?"
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

User avatar
Hippie
IAC Addict!
Location: 41º 35' 27" N, 93º 37' 15" W
Status: Offline

Post by Hippie » Sun May 02, 2010 6:52 am

Bleyseng wrote:My question is "What oil was used that did the damage to the bearings?"
Me too.
I've never seen corrosion like that from SL or SM oil.
If it was ZDDP related corrosion, I almost wonder if some PO used a whole bottle of ZDDP break-in additive per oil change when about an ounce for most additives would have been sufficient for after break-in.

I have a 15 oz bottle of Lucas TB Zinc Plus break-in additive that is basically 30 weight oil with 38,000 ppm ZDDP...And I read about these guys on other forums that put in whole bottles of similar stuff every oil change.

As an aside, many new oils use MoTDC as a anti-wear supplement.
It's oil soluable and not particulate (read settling out or abrasive) like the molybdenum disulfide used in grease. It also forms a layer like ZDDP and behaves much the same way.
Japanese Automobile Manufacturers Accociation has determined that 700 ppm of MoTDC, along with ~800 ppm zinc will protect lifters as well as the older oils.
Most US branded oils use maybe 75 - 150 ppm "Moly" (if any) as a supplement. The reason higher Moly levels are most importent to the JAMA, is that there are still a lot of asian makes on the street with sliding finger lifters (Nissan) made in the late '80s/early '90s.

One reason I use Toyota OEM 0W-20 in my truck is the high moly levels.
(probably not necessary as I have roller lifters and DOHC, but it is extra peace of mind.)

Look at that moly! :cheers:

Image

User avatar
Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
Status: Offline

Post by Amskeptic » Sun May 02, 2010 8:23 am

Hippie wrote:
Amskeptic wrote: Here's erosion when lead babbit gets attacked:
[picture]
Youch. Are we sure this is from plain old 1100-1200 ppm zinc oil with no additives?
I have no idea. I showed a photograph of dhoch14's engine's center main bearing shells. I have no idea what the cause was.
I wanted to show you what erosion looks like.
Colin :flower:
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

User avatar
Hippie
IAC Addict!
Location: 41º 35' 27" N, 93º 37' 15" W
Status: Offline

Post by Hippie » Sun May 02, 2010 9:51 am

Amskeptic wrote:
I wanted to show you what erosion looks like.
Colin :flower:
Pretty nasty, whatever the cause.

User avatar
tristessa
Trusted Air-Cooled Maniac
Location: Uwish Uknew, Oregon
Status: Offline

Post by tristessa » Sun May 02, 2010 4:07 pm

Amskeptic wrote:I showed a photograph of dhoch14's engine's center main bearing shells.
His original engine, or the shortblock he got from me for spare pieces?

Asking because if those are from the shortblock, that motor came from an unknown-history junkyard Bus .. then sat in my storage/garage for over 3 years.
Remember, only YOU can prevent narcissism!

User avatar
Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
Status: Offline

Post by Amskeptic » Sun May 02, 2010 5:04 pm

tristessa wrote:
Amskeptic wrote:I showed a photograph of dhoch14's engine's center main bearing shells.
His original engine, or the shortblock he got from me for spare pieces?

Asking because if those are from the shortblock, that motor came from an unknown-history junkyard Bus .. then sat in my storage/garage for over 3 years.
Yes, your shortblock. Now cough it up, what on Earth did you do to those poor poor bearings? Did you dump used buckets of floor cleaner into the shed after mopping the kitchen? Enquiring minds . . . . :cyclopsani:
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

User avatar
tristessa
Trusted Air-Cooled Maniac
Location: Uwish Uknew, Oregon
Status: Offline

Post by tristessa » Sun May 02, 2010 8:41 pm

I never put anything *into* that engine. Took the heads, pistons & cylinders off...
Remember, only YOU can prevent narcissism!

User avatar
Bleyseng
IAC Addict!
Location: Seattle again
Contact:
Status: Offline

Post by Bleyseng » Mon May 03, 2010 3:12 am

Ok, now we can guess that the bearing disease isn't probably caused by ZDDP but maybe neglect?

I have seen bearings that looked like that in motors that have sat for 10 years...old oil can be corrosive.
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

User avatar
Bleyseng
IAC Addict!
Location: Seattle again
Contact:
Status: Offline

Post by Bleyseng » Mon May 03, 2010 1:09 pm

I just point out that the off the shelf oil we have been using for 20 years isn't the same oil nor can you depend on it just cuz you used it for 20 years.
Low Zinc oils are here to stay and in a flat tappet engine its going to probably be a problem. If you trust Jake's testing, it is a problem. I have 3 type 4 engines running now and one type 1 and a lot of cash was spend rebuilding em except for the type 1. It needs a rebuild fairly soon...
I go for safe not sorry as I have already burnt up the 2.0l 914 motor once tracking it and killing the pistons overreving it. (missing a shift and hitting 7500rpms on a straight will do that.
The Westy takes a different kind of abuse with all that weight going up mountain roads (Cascade Mts) and freeway speeds of 75 mph. I figure to make the engine last use a oil that has the Zinc in it like when VW engineered the engine.
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

User avatar
midatlanticys
Addicted!
Location: Azores Portugal
Status: Offline

Re: Zinc? or Just Old Age Showing...

Post by midatlanticys » Mon May 03, 2010 3:32 pm

The Air-Cooled Ranch wrote:Anyway - just some random thoughts to help keep things in focus. . . . . a Paintin' Fool.
Thank you Jim - great insight! btw: do we know how Mr. Hoover is? He's not written on his blog since February :pale:
"The sad thing about governments is that in every single case, government formed by the people eventually becomes so large it begins to prey upon the people who created it.” -- B. Hoover

Post Reply