trouble getting it running: fuel pump stays on

[deadaheadub]

First off, you guys on this forum who are willing to help out the ignorant like me are great. I'm so glad there are folk out there who love ACVWs so much!

I did disconnect the double relay plugs, and put them back in the only way they can go. They can't go in any other way- I checked. I will check for loose wires in them.
I have the coil hooked up right.
The 3rd wire to the + is the Pertronix.
And here's my starter (before I cleaned it).. No 3rd spade terminal at the bottom like vwlover's (and a lot dirtier). Not even where one has broken off in that position.
Thanks VERY much
Ryan

[vwlover77]

OK... It all looks right.

Let's start with some basic checks of the double relay. Open the access hatch, and listen carefully.....

1. If you turn the key to the "on" position (not start), do you hear a "click" from the relay? You should. You should also hear a click when you turn the key off again, but it may not be as easy to hear. (But if you turn it off and back on again and it clicks each time it's turned on, it's good...)

2. If that works, then let's see if the AFM will turn on the fuel pump like it should. If you can remove the lid of your AFM, do so and then gently rotate the wiper mechanism counter-clockwise with the ignition ON. The fuel pump should come on as soon as the wiper leaves it rest position (you can see the little switch contacts close in there). If your lid is glued in place, remove the air filter and push the air flap in the AFM gently with a screwdriver to move it from its rest position. Then, when it returns to its rest position, the fuel pump should go OFF. (Again, this test is with the ignition ON.)

3. Just for grins, repeat the test with the key off. The fuel pump should NOT come on.

Let us know....

[deadaheadub]

OK, I will go out and try to test the AFM as you suggest. I was thinking if that is what gives feedback for the pump to turn off and on, maybe I f---d something up there?
But check this out: when I tested the double relay ala Bentley (pg. 10-8 ), everything tested as described in the book until I got to testing 88d. The test light is supposed to light when you turn the key to engage the starter (position 3), which it did. But turning the key off, THE TEST LIGHT STAYED LIT, and stayed on UNTIL I DISCONNECTED THE BATTERY at the positive terminal. Reconnect the battery, and the light stays off until I engage the starter. Now THAT MIRRORS EXACTLY WHAT MY PUMP IS DOING, isn't on until I engage the starter and stays running when I turn the key to off, until I disconnect the battery. Very similar, no?
What is going to cause that in the relay? It doesn't really seem very likely the relay is going to go bad because I disconnected the plugs in the relay to remove the engine, does it? The wires in the plugs seem solid. Some wire connection I undid and redid elsewhere in the process of engine removal?
And another thing: as I was running these tests, cranking the starter, I had the fuel pump disconnected at the filter. Checking for clogged fuel lines. The engine turning over started to catch, better than it has when I've tried to start it since putting the engine back in. Has the pump been flooding the engine? And now with the fuel supply cut off, except for what was still in the line from the pump to the engine, it was lean enough to want to start? What do you think?
THANKS

[vwlover77]

First...... The fuel pump running will not flood your engine. It can run all day. The fuel pressure regulator maintains system pressure, and returns unused fuel back to the tank. The only way fuel gets into your cylinders is by the injectors getting a voltage signal to open their little needle valves and spray, which is what the computer does. (Actually, the voltage is always there when the ignition is on, but the ground is not. That's what the computer supplies to turn on the injectors.)

Second.... Because of the first point, even though your fuel pump won't shut off, if everything else is OK, the engine should start and run just fine.

I'm a bit stumped now.....gotta think for a while....

[vwlover77]

One other quick thought:

Did you, by any chance, mix up any of the connectors for the aux air regulator, cold start valve, or the thermo time switch?

[vwlover77]

Last thought for tonight:

Get under the Bus with your test light. Disconnect the thin red/white wire from the starter. Put your test light on the terminal it was connected to.

The light should be out.

Have someone turn the key to the ON position. The light should still be out.

Have someone turn the key to the START position. The light should come on while the starter cranks.

When they release the key back to the ON position, does the light go back out again? It should!

[deadaheadub]

One other quick thought:

Did you, by any chance, mix up any of the connectors for the aux air regulator, cold start valve, or the thermo time switch?

Since I will have to look those up to know where/what they are, I can't answer that right now. I think I hooked everything back up the way it was.
I'll try what you suggest tomorrow (if I can get an assistant). I'll hook up the fuel line again and try starting it as well.
Thanks

[deadaheadub]

I hooked up another (working) double relay I got from Nuketroop (thanks)!) and it did the same thing- engine cranks, starts to run for a second, then dies, and the fuel pump stays running until I disconnect the battery. So what could be causing the relay to act funny (as my testing showed it to stay closed and giving juice to the pump until disconnecting the battery)?
thanks

[vwlover77]

So what could be causing the relay to act funny (as my testing showed it to stay closed and giving juice to the pump until disconnecting the battery)?

Try those tests at the starter that I described earlier.....

[deadaheadub]

Ok, I tested the AFM:

2. If that works, then let's see if the AFM will turn on the fuel pump like it should. If you can remove the lid of your AFM, do so and then gently rotate the wiper mechanism counter-clockwise with the ignition ON. The fuel pump should come on as soon as the wiper leaves it rest position (you can see the little switch contacts close in there). If your lid is glued in place, remove the air filter and push the air flap in the AFM gently with a screwdriver to move it from its rest position. Then, when it returns to its rest position, the fuel pump should go OFF. (Again, this test is with the ignition ON.)

3. Just for grins, repeat the test with the key off. The fuel pump should NOT come on.

The pump did not go on.
I tested the wire on the starter:

Get under the Bus with your test light. Disconnect the thin red/white wire from the starter. Put your test light on the terminal it was connected to.
The light should be out.
Have someone turn the key to the ON position. The light should still be out.
Have someone turn the key to the START position. The light should come on while the starter cranks.
When they release the key back to the ON position, does the light go back out again? It should!

Nothing. No lighting up.

I also noticed on the plug for the air intake sensor, there are 4 little teeth on the female side for each of the contacts. The first one, 39, has one of the 4 little teeth missing, 4 remain, 1 on top, 2 on the bottom. Would it be likely to cause a lack of connection?
gratefully
Ryan

[vwlover77]

The pump did not go on.

I'm not sure which test condition you are referring to with the AFM.

The pump did not go on with the ignition ON? That's bad - It should.
The pump did not go on with the ignition OFF? That's OK and expected.

I tested the wire on the starter:
Nothing. No lighting up.

Did you connect your test light to the wire, or to the terminal on the starter itself? I meant for you to connect your test light to the terminal on the starter.

I also noticed on the plug for the air intake sensor, there are 4 little teeth on the female side for each of the contacts. The first one, 39, has one of the 4 little teeth missing, 4 remain, 1 on top, 2 on the bottom. Would it be likely to cause a lack of connection?

If the remaining three are in the proper position as compared to one of the contacts that has all four still in place, then I would think it should make contact OK.

[deadaheadub]

The pump did not go on.

I'm not sure which test condition you are referring to with the AFM.

The pump did not go on with the ignition ON? That's bad - It should.
The pump did not go on with the ignition OFF? That's OK and expected.

I tested it with the key turned to position 2 (on but not engaging starter). It didn't go on either way.

I tested the wire on the starter:
Nothing. No lighting up.

Did you connect your test light to the wire, or to the terminal on the starter itself? I meant for you to connect your test light to the terminal on the starter.

I connected it to the terminal.

I also noticed on the plug for the air intake sensor, there are 4 little teeth on the female side for each of the contacts. The first one, 39, has one of the 4 little teeth missing, 4 remain, 1 on top, 2 on the bottom. Would it be likely to cause a lack of connection?

If the remaining three are in the proper position as compared to one of the contacts that has all four still in place, then I would think it should make contact OK.

Well, that's good at least.

[vwlover77]

This keeps getting stranger and stranger. At this point, I have no idea how your fuel pump is receiving power, as both "normal" methods of supplying it are apparently not delivering any.

Also, the test results are inconsistent with what you reported happening when you did the Bentley double relay tests.

Have you checked all fuses (including the in-line fuse to the coil)?
Have you checked all grounds?

Did you damage or pinch any wiring when you resinstalled the engine?

Geez, I wish I could lay eyes on it!

[Amskeptic]

The test light is supposed to light when you turn the key to engage the starter (position 3), which it did. But turning the key off, THE TEST LIGHT STAYED LIT, and stayed on UNTIL I DISCONNECTED THE BATTERY at the positive terminal. Reconnect the battery, and the light stays off until I engage the starter. Now THAT MIRRORS EXACTLY WHAT MY PUMP IS DOING,

That is what sticking relay contacts do. It is also what relays-with-unwanted electrical supply do. You must determine whether or not the relay's inner coil (86 > 85) is getting juice with the ignition off, or whether or not the switch contacts 30 > 87 are closed (stuck) with the ignition off.

You can remove the covers to the double relay and watch the little contact lever. It will click closed when asked. Then pull the plug off the double relay. The pump WILL shut off, but we're interested in if the contact releases inside the relay. If it does, the contact is not stuck, but the relay is being energized without your consent. If you don't want to remove the covers, just listen closely the pump side relay, not the power relay.

as I was running these tests, cranking the starter, I had the fuel pump disconnected at the filter. Checking for clogged fuel lines. The engine turning over started to catch, better than it has when I've tried to start it since putting the engine back in. Has the pump been flooding the engine?

I wonder if you have illegal voltage coursing in the circuit, causing the fuel pump to run when it is absolutely not supposed to be, and perhaps energizing the cold-start circuit when it is not supposed to be. All I can say is to follow the factory wiring paths with great diligence and logic.
Colin

[vwlover77]

That is what sticking relay contacts do. It is also what relays-with-unwanted electrical supply do.

Since he plugged in a "known-good" relay from another vehicle and got the same results, I think it must be the latter (relay with unwanted electrical supply)

What stumps me is why the AFM contact, with the ignition on, won't start the fuel pump.....