Continuing problems with Headflow Masters engine

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THall
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Re: Continuing problems with Headflow Masters engine

Post by THall » Thu Apr 21, 2016 5:16 am

THall wrote:
Bleyseng wrote:looks like gas to me so I would guess a stuck fuel injector. Pull it out and test it for spray pattern (cone fan shape spray vs stream) into a glass bottle. Disconnect the dizzy so no spark while doing this test.
Yeah, it's gas for sure. But, do I have a combination of issues going on? Leaky injector or bad FPR? I cannot find a fuel leak in the engine bay, so is it leaking from the cylinder head to cylinder mating area?
I should also add that all injectors and CSV were serviced by WitchHunter last spring. They also installed the small section of hose that connects to the rail. Not that we can rule them out as a potential issue, but according to the testing they did they were functioning properly at that time.
'78 Westy 2.0 FI

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Bleyseng
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Re: Continuing problems with Headflow Masters engine

Post by Bleyseng » Thu Apr 21, 2016 6:21 am

Maybe they tested them but have you? I do my own testing to be sure they are working properly. Hook up a remote starter button, pull the injectors one at a time and test them into a ml glass beaker. See if they spray in a cone fan and don't leak. Measure the amout of gas too for each injector. Check the CSV too or disable it as they go bad and you really don't need it except at 20F to start.
BE SURE TO DISCONNECT THE HOT PLUS LEAD TO THE COIL SO THERE IS NO SPARK!!!

My guess is one is stuck open as having fuel run out at the cylinder to head seal means too much fuel. You are also washing down the cylinder/piston with gas so the oil can't do its job. This is one of those fix it now befoe it wrecks something.
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

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Amskeptic
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Re: Continuing problems with Headflow Masters engine

Post by Amskeptic » Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:02 am

THall wrote:
Bleyseng wrote:looks like gas to me so I would guess a stuck fuel injector. Pull it out and test it for spray pattern (cone fan shape spray vs stream) into a glass bottle. Disconnect the dizzy so no spark while doing this test.
Yeah, it's gas for sure. But, do I have a combination of issues going on? Leaky injector or bad FPR? I cannot find a fuel leak in the engine bay, so is it leaking from the cylinder head to cylinder mating area?
Fuel pressure regulator requires a good solid vacuum signal to pull down to the expected 28 psi. A good solid vacuum signal comes from the correct cam and no vacuum leaks and of course the proper vacuum signal (off the plenum).

Regarding the fuel leak, yes, you need to establish the source. I *would perform the following diagnostic* before you tear stuff apart:

FUEL BASED RPM DROP
To affirm that you have a fuel leak at an injector, have a warm idling engine and pull each injector plug one at a time. If the rpms drop, that injector is shutting off. If there is no change in rpm, that injector may be leaking. Pull it and do the Bleyseng leak check.

IGNITION BASED RPM DROP
Now do each cylinder again, but this time pull the spark plug wire from the distributor cap. If any cylinder does not drop, that cylinder is not participating think more of compression leak.

COLD CRANKING TEST
To narrow down cylinder/head leak, disable the ignition and pull the left plug off the double relay before your stone cold cranking. Have assistant crank the starter while you keep an ear right at your fuel spill spot. You may hear air escaping at that cylinder's compression stroke.

If you do, call Adrian. Tell him your symptoms. Then tell him he can pay for your Itinerant Air-Cooled appointment. Remove engine and tins before I get there.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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THall
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Re: Continuing problems with Headflow Masters engine

Post by THall » Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:45 am

Amskeptic wrote:
COLD CRANKING TEST
To narrow down cylinder/head leak, disable the ignition and pull the left plug off the double relay before your stone cold cranking. Have assistant crank the starter while you keep an ear right at your fuel spill spot. You may hear air escaping at that cylinder's compression stroke.
What's the best way to disable ignition? Remove black wire from the booster fan harness to #15 on the coil?

What's the reason for pulling the left plug off the double relay?

What's your take on the second video I posted? Is that puff of smoke/vapor immediately upon start-up not conclusive evidence of a cylinder/head leak?

Thank you
'78 Westy 2.0 FI

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Amskeptic
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Re: Continuing problems with Headflow Masters engine

Post by Amskeptic » Thu Apr 21, 2016 9:13 am

THall wrote:
Amskeptic wrote:
COLD CRANKING TEST
To narrow down cylinder/head leak, disable the ignition and pull the left plug off the double relay before your stone cold cranking. Have assistant crank the starter while you keep an ear right at your fuel spill spot. You may hear air escaping at that cylinder's compression stroke.
What's the best way to disable ignition? Remove black wire from the booster fan harness to #15 on the coil?

What's the reason for pulling the left plug off the double relay?

What's your take on the second video I posted? Is that puff of smoke/vapor immediately upon start-up not conclusive evidence of a cylinder/head leak?

Thank you
I, I , I didn't watch no video. If you got the puff at that location under the engine and it wasn't the exhaust port blasting over, then you are indeed already at the conclusion.
The left plug pull prevents the starter from energizing the fuel pump.
Disable ignition by removing black (+) off coil 15, yes.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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THall
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Re: Continuing problems with Headflow Masters engine

Post by THall » Thu Apr 21, 2016 9:33 am

Amskeptic wrote: I, I , I didn't watch no video. If you got the puff at that location under the engine and it wasn't the exhaust port blasting over, then you are indeed already at the conclusion.
Watching the video again, the puff is clearly coming from the leak zone and not exhaust port.

This is the first time posting a video from youtube, is it showing up correctly?

Here it is again:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kD1DbiCkUxg
'78 Westy 2.0 FI

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Amskeptic
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Re: Continuing problems with Headflow Masters engine

Post by Amskeptic » Thu Apr 21, 2016 7:55 pm

THall wrote: video
Tim, I am so sorry, but that engine is hosed. Call Adrian. See what he has to say. Tell him you are doing a forensic head torque check and posting the results here.

You MUST perform a cylinder head torque test before removing the heads for documentation (like this excellent video documentation).
Write down numbers L 1-8 and R 1-8. Set your torque wrench for 23 ft/lbs. You will first go in the tighten direction for all 16 head nuts. Follow the Bentley sequence. If you have a beam style torque wrench, you can see the actual torque applied when the nut begins to move. Write down those actual numbers in ft/lbs. If you have a stupid clicker torque wrench, you must estimate the degrees that the nut travels before it hits 23.

When you are ready to remove the heads, follow the Bentley sequence in reverse, i.e. loosen from 8 to 0. Please photograph the head sealing surfaces and cylinder barrels if necessary.

I am officially on the war path. This must not stand. This is completely unacceptable. Please update both the Hold Off On Headflow Masters Engines thread, and the buyer/seller feedback on theSamba and whatever other threads may seem appropriate. Think of the suffering and the dashed dreams and wasted treasure of those following you . . .

I am sorry and disgusted. I wanted to drive your bus with the correct camshaft.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Bleyseng
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Re: Continuing problems with Headflow Masters engine

Post by Bleyseng » Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:18 pm

Why not do a compression test and a leak down test to see if its leaking at the head.
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

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THall
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Re: Continuing problems with Headflow Masters engine

Post by THall » Fri Apr 22, 2016 5:04 am

Amskeptic wrote:Tim, I am so sorry, but that engine is hosed. I am sorry and disgusted. I wanted to drive your bus with the correct camshaft.
Colin
I'm guessing this means you think it's going to have to go back to HFM again?
'78 Westy 2.0 FI

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Amskeptic
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Re: Continuing problems with Headflow Masters engine

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Apr 22, 2016 6:41 am

Bleyseng wrote:Why not do a compression test and a leak down test to see if its leaking at the head.
Based on the video it is leaking at the head. You can see it.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Amskeptic
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Re: Continuing problems with Headflow Masters engine

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Apr 22, 2016 6:45 am

THall wrote:
Amskeptic wrote:Tim, I am so sorry, but that engine is hosed. I am sorry and disgusted. I wanted to drive your bus with the correct camshaft.
Colin
I'm guessing this means you think it's going to have to go back to HFM again?
Tim, I wouldn't do that. I don't know what is going on there, but I am pretty sure that you can do a more careful job. I think you deserve a financial remuneration.

It is possible that a simple retorque of the heads would be all that is required. It cannot be run in the meantime because it will only get worse.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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THall
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Re: Continuing problems with Headflow Masters engine

Post by THall » Fri Apr 22, 2016 7:02 am

Amskeptic wrote:
THall wrote:
Amskeptic wrote:Tim, I am so sorry, but that engine is hosed. I am sorry and disgusted. I wanted to drive your bus with the correct camshaft.
Colin
I'm guessing this means you think it's going to have to go back to HFM again?
Tim, I wouldn't do that. I don't know what is going on there, but I am pretty sure that you can do a more careful job. I think you deserve a financial remuneration.

It is possible that a simple retorque of the heads would be all that is required. It cannot be run in the meantime because it will only get worse.
Colin
Ok, let forensic head torque check commence.

I'll try to contact Adrian by phone. I did send an email yesterday with a link to the video, but that has so far gone unanswered.

Thank you
'78 Westy 2.0 FI

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THall
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Re: Continuing problems with Headflow Masters engine

Post by THall » Fri Apr 22, 2016 7:43 am

I'm still wondering if I have a leaky injector at #4? Should I simply pull it out and and place it in a container still attached to the fuel rail to see if it's dripping?
'78 Westy 2.0 FI

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Amskeptic
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Re: Continuing problems with Headflow Masters engine

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Apr 22, 2016 8:29 am

THall wrote:I'm still wondering if I have a leaky injector at #4? Should I simply pull it out and and place it in a container still attached to the fuel rail to see if it's dripping?
Did you do the injector plug pull test?
Do the following fun experiment. Dab up some of that liquid onto a paper towel and go light it on fire. If it lights up, OK OK it is fuel. If it just sits there soddenly, it is condensate.
Follow all common sense safety precautions.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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asiab3
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Re: Continuing problems with Headflow Masters engine

Post by asiab3 » Fri Apr 22, 2016 11:36 am

The diagnostic pathways on this site keep getting better and better.

THall, (and miz!) I have not forgotten about your PMs. Life gets in the way of living sometimes.

Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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