Continuing problems with Headflow Masters engine

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THall
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Continuing problems with Headflow Masters engine

Post by THall » Sat Apr 16, 2016 6:10 am

Thought this may be worthy of starting a new thread. Here's the back story:
viewtopic.php?f=69&t=12552&p=214490&hil ... wi#p214490

So, I got my engine back from HFM last fall after sending back to have the performance cam replaced and drove it a couple hundred miles before putting it away for the winter. Everything seemed to be fine.

I fired it up for the first time of the season last weekend and again, seemed fine besides still having a bit of a low cold idle. Then I when I started it yesterday I noticed a leak coming from the area of the 3/4 pushrods between the case and the tin. But it was fuel leaking, not oil. I'm guessing I just didn't notice this happening previously since the tin was catching the drips for the most part.

This morning I removed the tin and started it up and instantly it started to drip fuel from one spot. It's only leaking with the engine running. Needless to say I'm not happy. What the heck is going on?
'78 Westy 2.0 FI

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Re: Continuing problems with Headflow Masters engine

Post by Bleyseng » Sat Apr 16, 2016 7:42 am

Cracked fuel hose, leaking injector, loose fuel hose clamp?
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
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Re: Continuing problems with Headflow Masters engine

Post by THall » Sat Apr 16, 2016 8:38 am

Bleyseng wrote:Cracked fuel hose, leaking injector, loose fuel hose clamp?
Not that I could find in my inspection this morning. All the hoses were new as of last year and I checked every connection.

With the engine running I looked very closely at the injectors and stuck my fingers underneath to see if I could feel any stray fuel. I wasn't able to see or feel any fuel anywhere in the engine bay.
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Re: Continuing problems with Headflow Masters engine

Post by THall » Sat Apr 16, 2016 9:38 am

A couple more observations: (and to be fair, I shouldn't automatically assume this is HFM problem before figuring out what's going on)

It is dripping immediately upon start-up always from the same spot, but does stop after idling for a minute or two. It has been leaving a spot on a piece of cardboard about an inch in diameter. So, not a very large amount before it stops.

I also pulled each plug wire and confirmed that all cylinders are participating as it wanted to stall upon removing each.
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Re: Continuing problems with Headflow Masters engine

Post by SlowLane » Sat Apr 16, 2016 10:31 am

Just a guess, but perhaps the shot of fuel from your cold-start valve is leaking past the intake manifold gasket on the 3/4 head. That might explain how you only see it on startup.

OTOH, it might still be leaking after you see the dripping stop, but the heat from the head is evaporating the leaking fuel before it has a chance to drip.

There are only a few places that fuel can come from in that area. Should be easier to eliminate possibilities than an oil leak.
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Re: Continuing problems with Headflow Masters engine

Post by THall » Sat Apr 16, 2016 2:20 pm

Just went out again and started it up and quickly slid under the 3/4 side with the tin removed. I saw fuel bubbling down from the area where the head mates to the piston jug. Again, not a lot but enough for it to drip 3 or 4 times.

Another thing I noticed is condensation coming out of the tail pipe.

Not sure what to do from here.
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Re: Continuing problems with Headflow Masters engine

Post by SlowLane » Sat Apr 16, 2016 2:55 pm

Damn, that doesn't sound good.
Check the torque on your head studs?
Call Adrian?
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Re: Continuing problems with Headflow Masters engine

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Apr 16, 2016 6:38 pm

THall wrote:Just went out again and started it up and quickly slid under the 3/4 side with the tin removed. I saw fuel bubbling down from the area where the head mates to the piston jug. Again, not a lot but enough for it to drip 3 or 4 times.

Another thing I noticed is condensation coming out of the tail pipe.

Not sure what to do from here.
Let's try to narrow this down.

Are you sure it is fuel?
Are you sure it is not condensate leaking from the head/barrel area?
Are you sure it is not some pissy thin break-in oil (what kind of oil is in the engine)?

Fuel does not leave your finger tip feeling greasy. Neither does condensate. Oil does.

With a mildly warm engine, clean the area very well with careful spritzes of carb spray followed by an immediate mop of paper towel. Do not run engine until:

After a completely cold overnight sit, please have your willing and able assistant start the engine from the driver's seat, you want to be right there when it first starts. Instruct your assistant to perform a self-directed-no-input-from-you shut off the engine in three seconds.

Fuel bubbling?
Liquid wettening?
Oily finger tip?

Condensation is normal with a cold engine, and there is quite a bit of it. The above test should help you distinguish from the three options. You can distinguish with your sense of smell and touch.

Fuel is fuel and smells like fuel and is a rapidly evaporating solvent.

Condensate is drippy water. It does not feel greasy and it does not smell. If you have drippy water from a cylinder head-to-barrel contact area, you have a problem with head seating. This symptom does clear up in just minutes due to engine expansion.

Oil leaking from the cylinder head-to-barrel contact area has same cause as above, but you will distinguish it from leaky condensate by means of the greasy finger tip test.

NOW THEN - a poorly clamped hose /damaged hose, scarred nipple ALSO gives you the wet when cold dry when warm symptom, but you WILL smell fuel.
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 91 414 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,113 miles

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Re: Continuing problems with Headflow Masters engine

Post by THall » Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:19 pm

Amskeptic wrote: Let's try to narrow this down. Are you sure it is fuel?
Yes
Amskeptic wrote:Are you sure it is not some pissy thin break-in oil (what kind of oil is in the engine)?
No break-in oil. Filled with Castrol 20-50
Amskeptic wrote:Fuel does not leave your finger tip feeling greasy. Neither does condensate. Oil does.
Not greasy
Amskeptic wrote:With a mildly warm engine, clean the area very well with careful spritzes of carb spray followed by an immediate mop of paper towel. Do not run engine until:

After a completely cold overnight sit, please have your willing and able assistant start the engine from the driver's seat, you want to be right there when it first starts. Instruct your assistant to perform a self-directed-no-input-from-you shut off the engine in three seconds.

Fuel bubbling?
Liquid wettening?
Oily finger tip
See video. I did let it go for more than the prescribed three seconds to show the duration of the leak and when it begins to subside.
Amskeptic wrote:NOW THEN - a poorly clamped hose /damaged hose, scarred nipple ALSO gives you the wet when cold dry when warm symptom, but you WILL smell fuel.
Not exactly sure which area of the fuel circuit you're referring to here as far as hose, clamp, and nipple?

This video is looking up at the #4 exhaust port upon first morning start:

https://youtu.be/G4506CVlNDs
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Re: Continuing problems with Headflow Masters engine

Post by Amskeptic » Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:58 pm

THall wrote:[
Not exactly sure which area of the fuel circuit you're referring to here as far as hose, clamp, and nipple?

video :
Smelled like fuel?
If there is fuel dripping from below, it is coming from the top.

Up in the engine compartment, dry the left side fuel run, hoses, injectors, under the injectors, clamps, and adjacent tins. Let sit overnight. Because new engines are shiny, it is difficult to see moisture. Lay a dry paper towel under the left side manifold and injectors and get it positioned against the head. It should be perfectly dry just sitting there. Start engine and run for a minute, then shut-off. Check each hose end and the left side fuel rail with a bright light. Check the little 7mm nut and aluminum sealing washer at the tee. Does the paper towel show dampness?

I am thinking you might have a leak at the hose going into the #4 injector. Is the injector equipped with a factory swege collar at the hose, or has it already been cut off and replaced with a new hose and a hose clamp?
Factory swege/hose leak, cut off collar and replace the short length of hose using new clamps.
An already replaced hose with a clamp, see if the clamp is loose. Tighten and recheck, or replace the offending hose and clamp/s.
ColinThisIsInteresting :happy1:
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 91 414 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,113 miles

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Re: Continuing problems with Headflow Masters engine

Post by THall » Sun Apr 17, 2016 4:30 pm

Amskeptic wrote:Smelled like fuel?
Yes, it's fuel.
Amskeptic wrote:Up in the engine compartment, dry the left side fuel run, hoses, injectors, under the injectors, clamps, and adjacent tins. Let sit overnight. Because new engines are shiny, it is difficult to see moisture. Lay a dry paper towel under the left side manifold and injectors and get it positioned against the head. It should be perfectly dry just sitting there. Start engine and run for a minute, then shut-off. Check each hose end and the left side fuel rail with a bright light. Check the little 7mm nut and aluminum sealing washer at the tee. Does the paper towel show dampness?

I am thinking you might have a leak at the hose going into the #4 injector. Is the injector equipped with a factory swege collar at the hose, or has it already been cut off and replaced with a new hose and a hose clamp?
Factory swege/hose leak, cut off collar and replace the short length of hose using new clamps.
An already replaced hose with a clamp, see if the clamp is loose. Tighten and recheck, or replace the offending hose and clamp/s.
ColinThisIsInteresting :happy1:
I know you said let it sit overnight, but yeah, I'm too impatient. All connections and engine compartment were dry. I positioned the paper towel as you suggested and fired it up. I got the same dripping below after a minute of running. Upon checking the paper towel and all fuel connections everything remained dry. If the leak is coming from the engine bay I haven't found it.

Looking at the video again right at 41 seconds it appears that fuel is being flung out with force. Not sure if that would be a clue of some sort?
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Re: Continuing problems with Headflow Masters engine

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Apr 18, 2016 7:56 pm

THall wrote:
Amskeptic wrote:Smelled like fuel?
Yes, it's fuel.
Amskeptic wrote:Up in the engine compartment, dry the left side fuel run, hoses, injectors, under the injectors, clamps, and adjacent tins. Let sit overnight. Because new engines are shiny, it is difficult to see moisture. Lay a dry paper towel under the left side manifold and injectors and get it positioned against the head. It should be perfectly dry just sitting there. Start engine and run for a minute, then shut-off. Check each hose end and the left side fuel rail with a bright light. Check the little 7mm nut and aluminum sealing washer at the tee. Does the paper towel show dampness?

I am thinking you might have a leak at the hose going into the #4 injector. Is the injector equipped with a factory swege collar at the hose, or has it already been cut off and replaced with a new hose and a hose clamp?
Factory swege/hose leak, cut off collar and replace the short length of hose using new clamps.
An already replaced hose with a clamp, see if the clamp is loose. Tighten and recheck, or replace the offending hose and clamp/s.
ColinThisIsInteresting :happy1:
I know you said let it sit overnight, but yeah, I'm too impatient. All connections and engine compartment were dry. I positioned the paper towel as you suggested and fired it up. I got the same dripping below after a minute of running. Upon checking the paper towel and all fuel connections everything remained dry. If the leak is coming from the engine bay I haven't found it.

Looking at the video again right at 41 seconds it appears that fuel is being flung out with force. Not sure if that would be a clue of some sort?
You best track this down but good.
Tomorrow's cold start, be there at the cylinder head/barrel interface and have assistant rev engine up and down and up and down immediately upon starting. Look for evidence of blow-by. Listen for a canary chirp. Dead cold, Mr. Impatient.
Canary chirps go away in 3-5 seconds with mild head leaks, slightly longer for moderate head leaks.
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 91 414 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,113 miles

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Re: Continuing problems with Headflow Masters engine

Post by THall » Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:10 pm

Amskeptic wrote:You best track this down but good.
Tomorrow's cold start, be there at the cylinder head/barrel interface and have assistant rev engine up and down and up and down immediately upon starting. Look for evidence of blow-by. Listen for a canary chirp. Dead cold, Mr. Impatient. Canary chirps go away in 3-5 seconds with mild head leaks, slightly longer for moderate head leaks.
Colin
I was able to do this test on a stone cold engine this evening. My untrained ear thinks some chirping was heard, not exactly sure?
But, I also did see a puff from the leak zone immediately upon start-up which is visible in the video below.

Another observation is I believe I'm getting some fuel in the oil. The oil level seems to have gone up a bit and I can smell it on the dipstick. I decided to check fuel pressure per Bentley and came up with 38 vac hose off FPR and plugged and 36 with vac hose connected to FPR.

Please advise

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kD1DbiC ... e=youtu.be

Thank you
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Re: Continuing problems with Headflow Masters engine

Post by Bleyseng » Wed Apr 20, 2016 8:49 pm

looks like gas to me so I would guess a stuck fuel injector. Pull it out and test it for spray pattern (cone fan shape spray vs stream) into a glass bottle. Disconnect the dizzy so no spark while doing this test.
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
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Re: Continuing problems with Headflow Masters engine

Post by THall » Thu Apr 21, 2016 4:46 am

Bleyseng wrote:looks like gas to me so I would guess a stuck fuel injector. Pull it out and test it for spray pattern (cone fan shape spray vs stream) into a glass bottle. Disconnect the dizzy so no spark while doing this test.
Yeah, it's gas for sure. But, do I have a combination of issues going on? Leaky injector or bad FPR? I cannot find a fuel leak in the engine bay, so is it leaking from the cylinder head to cylinder mating area?
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