Cannot Adjust 2.0 T4 Valves

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Amskeptic
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Re: Cannot Adjust 2.0 T4 Valves

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Sep 06, 2016 9:19 pm

weswsimpson wrote:Hello,

I just disassembled a '77 and it had solid lifters.... which seems to be correct based on the engine number. Are you sure you have hydraulic lifters? Solid lifters would require a matching cam shaft and push rods--and a different method of valve adjustment. Maybe a PO or uninformed shop did a mis-match? Might be worth checking. I'm particularly interested as I have and '80 that I'm thinking of converting to solid lifters as I only plan to use the vanagon occasionally during the summer and don't want to go thru the issues I've had with bleeding the hydraulic lifters.
Things can be a bit more complex when going backwards. It is strongly suggested to have the proper lubricating system reliefs for the solid lifter engines. Solid lifter engines had their oil control valves located between the #1 pushrod tubes. Hydraulic lifter engines came from the factory without oil control valves, the lifters themselves bled out excess volume.

If you go back to solid lifters on a hydraulic case, the only pressure relief you get is at the rear relief valve. This is automatic cooler bypassing every time the pump puts out more than the galleries can flow.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: Cannot Adjust 2.0 T4 Valves

Post by weswsimpson » Wed Sep 07, 2016 5:51 am

Sounds like I should start with a '77 case then. I was hoping that the engine I found would serve that purpose, but the mice moved in and covered all the cooling fins, fan shrouding, etc. in so much junk that when the PO drove it it put a piston through the top of the case. Any other issues putting a '77 into an '80 vanagon?

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Re: Cannot Adjust 2.0 T4 Valves

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Sep 10, 2016 10:41 pm

weswsimpson wrote:Sounds like I should start with a '77 case then. I was hoping that the engine I found would serve that purpose, but the mice moved in and covered all the cooling fins, fan shrouding, etc. in so much junk that when the PO drove it it put a piston through the top of the case. Any other issues putting a '77 into an '80 vanagon?
Oil filler access and dipstick, yes.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: Cannot Adjust 2.0 T4 Valves

Post by weswsimpson » Sun Sep 11, 2016 7:19 am

Are these issues that can be addressed by having an '80 engine that parts can be used from? Is there a better way to get solid lifters into a vanagon? My issue is that I've had a tough time adjusting the valves because of the hydraulic lifters, and since I'm only planing on using it occasionally, i don't want to have issues every time I want to drive it. What's your recommendation?

Also, I have a loss of power in the higher rpms. I feel like it pulls well through the lower range, but then drops off. My max speed in 4th gear is about 45-50 mph and I have to drop down a gear to go up even a small hill. I feel like it's still a valve adjustment issue.... I've been all through the van, checked fuel injection output, new tank, fuel pump, filter, fuel lines, swapped ecus and AF meters, tested aux air valve, etc. I feel like it's running pretty well now, except for this lack of power. This van is new to me and wasn't running when I got it, so I'm not sure what else to look at.

The van is in the Northern Detroit suburbs, I'd like to get on your route next year.... Thanks!

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Re: Cannot Adjust 2.0 T4 Valves

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Sep 21, 2016 6:34 pm

weswsimpson wrote:Are these issues that can be addressed by having an '80 engine that parts can be used from? Is there a better way to get solid lifters into a vanagon? My issue is that I've had a tough time adjusting the valves because of the hydraulic lifters, and since I'm only planing on using it occasionally, i don't want to have issues every time I want to drive it. What's your recommendation?

Also, I have a loss of power in the higher rpms. I feel like it pulls well through the lower range, but then drops off. My max speed in 4th gear is about 45-50 mph and I have to drop down a gear to go up even a small hill. I feel like it's still a valve adjustment issue.... I've been all through the van, checked fuel injection output, new tank, fuel pump, filter, fuel lines, swapped ecus and AF meters, tested aux air valve, etc. I feel like it's running pretty well now, except for this lack of power. This van is new to me and wasn't running when I got it, so I'm not sure what else to look at.

The van is in the Northern Detroit suburbs, I'd like to get on your route next year.... Thanks!

Hi! My car got crashed into exactly 119 minutes after your post.

If your camshaft is hydraulic, and the rest of the engine is good, stick in a new set of forum-vetted hydraulic lifters with lots of assembly lube on the faces. Break-in procedure applies. Seriously. We cannot blame Hydraulic Lifters as a cause, when so many of us have had flawless performance from our hydraulic lifters for thousands upon thousands of miles.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: Cannot Adjust 2.0 T4 Valves

Post by weswsimpson » Wed Sep 21, 2016 7:40 pm

Sorry to hear you got crashed into--hope you're ok!

Yes, i'm sure you're right! Before I blame the AFM or the ECU, I'm going to focus on those lifters! My plan is to take them out, and go through the lifter bleeding procedure--but that will have to wait until next summer. Speaking of which, we'd love to have you put us on your route next summer. We're north of Detroit. Thanks!

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Re: Cannot Adjust 2.0 T4 Valves

Post by Amskeptic » Sun Sep 25, 2016 7:37 am

weswsimpson wrote:Sorry to hear you got crashed into--hope you're ok!

Yes, i'm sure you're right! Before I blame the AFM or the ECU, I'm going to focus on those lifters! My plan is to take them out, and go through the lifter bleeding procedure--but that will have to wait until next summer. Speaking of which, we'd love to have you put us on your route next summer. We're north of Detroit. Thanks!
It would be a pleasure to visit north of Detroit.

Lifter bleeding procedure requires absolute cleanliness.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: Cannot Adjust 2.0 T4 Valves

Post by energyturtle » Sat Oct 22, 2016 7:36 pm

Just a thought. Ive had some issues like yours many times over the last 10 years. I have found that unplugging the fuel and coil, while cranking the engine, and looking at the rockers move on each cylinder bank, gives you an idea of what's happening with the valves opening. If some are moving more, or less than others, it will through of the balance of ignition. It could also help diagnose a bad cam lobe, etc. Hydraulic lifters are tricky, and their wear pattern should be equal. Just a thought. I would also push on the bottom of the rocker, and depress the pushrod into the plunger of all lifters. Look for a spongy, spring back effect. If some are tight, and some are spongy, they won't create equal valve lift. That being said, some may require 0 lash, some msy require as much as 3 turns past 0 lash. The readership may disagree with this method, but it can be very forensic in knowledge of the valve train, especially in am older engine that the quality of maintenance is questionable.

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Re: Cannot Adjust 2.0 T4 Valves

Post by weswsimpson » Sun Oct 23, 2016 6:30 am

I did a similar procedure, except I removed the spark plugs and stuck an inspection camera into each combustion chamber, and then rotated the engine. I was able to watch each valve open and close. It was amazing that valves that I though were adjusted correctly didn't open at all. I went through this process a couple of times. I think I must have some bleeders with some air or something..... so I'm going to remove them all and re- purge them in the spring. It's running fine.... except I'm at only about 50 Percent power.

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Re: Cannot Adjust 2.0 T4 Valves

Post by Amskeptic » Sun Oct 23, 2016 4:29 pm

weswsimpson wrote:I did a similar procedure, except I removed the spark plugs and stuck an inspection camera into each combustion chamber, and then rotated the engine. I was able to watch each valve open and close. It was amazing that valves that I though were adjusted correctly didn't open at all. I went through this process a couple of times. I think I must have some bleeders with some air or something..... so I'm going to remove them all and re- purge them in the spring. It's running fine.... except I'm at only about 50 Percent power.
Imagine trying to start a fresh rebuild with eight empty hydraulic lifter barrels. You will have very little actual valve opening, and with new ring friction, your chances of getting the engine to start are diminished.

A very dirty trick, is to do what Scottie did, **bottom out the lifter! ** crank the screw in until you *see* the valve begin to open, then back it off until it closes, add a quarter turn back to give the valve room to heat up. Now you have "solid lifters" with just a little clearance. You MUST back the screws out from bottomed at least 1/4 turn!

THIS is a dirty get-the-engine-running trick. Once the engine runs, you really need to back off the adjustment screws to allow oil to get into the lifter barrels and eventually you can have them pumped up enough to start the engine reliably, then do a normal 1 1/2 or 2 turn preload.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: Cannot Adjust 2.0 T4 Valves

Post by bajaman72 » Wed Dec 21, 2016 4:09 pm

Is it possible to get a picture of the two different pushrods side by side?
This may be the problem I am having.
Thanks for any help.
1968 Karmann Ghia - Driver
1969 Transporter - Project
1959 Karmann Ghia - Full Race Car

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