1974 Bus with dual Solexes won't stay running

Moderators: Sluggo, Amskeptic

User avatar
whc03grady
IAC Addict!
Location: Livingston Montana
Contact:
Status: Offline

1974 Bus with dual Solexes won't stay running

Post by whc03grady » Thu Jun 25, 2015 12:46 pm

Feel free to move if this isn't the right forum.

After a tune up and day of fine running with Colin, Ludwig was a hard start this morning. The starter was cranking fine, but the engine took a while to get going.
Power seemed a little off on my first drive. A little underpowered, a little stumbly at transition.
The next start was harder yet. The day's second drive was about 12 miles. It felt the same and couldn't get going as fast as I had been on this road previously. 70 was really tough. I got to where I was going, took a shower, and went to restart. Extremely hard starting. Then it didn't want to keep running. I tried to get out of the place but power was nonexistent. Each restart was harder, and each little drive (a few yards at most) was worse until it just wouldn't run without a lot of throttle. Eventually it wouldn't run at all--just a fire up vrooom! and then dead. Then it wouldn't start.

For whatever reason I popped off the dist. cap and noticed the little braided wire from the plate to the body was broken. But there was consistent spark from the coil wire to ground when I had someone crank it over for me. The spark wasn't bright white or blue, more yellow-to-orange, but then again it was in broad daylight. Rotor looks decent, cap looks decent.

I tried to get the broken wire so that both ends were in contact; this seemed to help it get started (still hard) and run for a moment, though it definitely sounded/felt like it was running on only two or fewer cylinders. It will not idle and won't stay running even with a lot of throttle. Yes, it has gas which gets at least to the T between the carbs.

I've been advised to check for spark at the ends of the spark plug wires. Other than that, I'm at wits end (not hard when you're a half-wit).
Ludwig--1974 Westfalia, 2.0L (GD035193), Solex 34PDSIT-2/3 carburetors.
Gertie--1971 Squareback, 1600cc with Bosch D-Jetronic fuel injection from a '72 (E brain).
Read about their adventures:
http://www.ludwigandgertie.blogspot.com

User avatar
the miz
Addicted!
Location: Minnesota
Status: Offline

Re: 1974 Bus with dual Solexes won't stay running

Post by the miz » Thu Jun 25, 2015 2:02 pm

Mitch, I'm no expert here...at all... but, for what it's worth:
- last time I had a situation like you're describing it ended up being my breaker points. The Pertronix installed by the PO had failed, I'd installed breaker points and then gap-ed them poorly...rough starts, sudden kills and anemic 1/2 power-type performance ensued. I bought a new Pertronix, installed it and the problem was instantly solved...not saying Pertronix are the answer, just saying maybe it could be the points.

...that's all I've got.

miz
1982 Westy- Vana White

User avatar
asiab3
IAC Addict!
Location: San Diego, CA
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: 1974 Bus with dual Solexes won't stay running

Post by asiab3 » Thu Jun 25, 2015 5:24 pm

Did the problem appear suddenly, like after a drive in particular? Immediately after a perfect drive? Or was it a more slow onset?

Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

User avatar
whc03grady
IAC Addict!
Location: Livingston Montana
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: 1974 Bus with dual Solexes won't stay running

Post by whc03grady » Thu Jun 25, 2015 6:11 pm

the miz wrote:breaker points gap-ed poorly...rough starts, sudden kills and anemic 1/2 power-type performance ensued.
The gap checked out yesterday when the new points were installed, though we didn't put a dwell meter on them. But...
asiab3 wrote:Did the problem appear suddenly, like after a drive in particular? Immediately after a perfect drive? Or was it a more slow onset?
It didn't manifest itself yesterday at all as far as I could tell. Then this morning inside an hour there were two drives, like I say. It went from a hardish start but good running on the first to terrible running with very hard/no starting on the second. This all took place between 8.30 and 11.45 this morning, so less than 2.5 hours, and over the course of 25 miles.
Ludwig--1974 Westfalia, 2.0L (GD035193), Solex 34PDSIT-2/3 carburetors.
Gertie--1971 Squareback, 1600cc with Bosch D-Jetronic fuel injection from a '72 (E brain).
Read about their adventures:
http://www.ludwigandgertie.blogspot.com

User avatar
asiab3
IAC Addict!
Location: San Diego, CA
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: 1974 Bus with dual Solexes won't stay running

Post by asiab3 » Thu Jun 25, 2015 8:49 pm

whc03grady wrote: It didn't manifest itself yesterday at all as far as I could tell. Then this morning inside an hour there were two drives, like I say. It went from a hardish start but good running on the first to terrible running with very hard/no starting on the second. This all took place between 8.30 and 11.45 this morning, so less than 2.5 hours, and over the course of 25 miles.
What new parts have been installed recently. New condenser?

Was the braided wire correct before the issues? Or could it have been broken for a bit and not noticed until now? Often times we notice things when looking for a problem. I didn't even HAVE the braided wire on my bus until I went looking for a cause for my issues. 3,500 miles without it!

Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

User avatar
whc03grady
IAC Addict!
Location: Livingston Montana
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: 1974 Bus with dual Solexes won't stay running

Post by whc03grady » Fri Jun 26, 2015 8:46 am

asiab3 wrote:What new parts have been installed recently. New condenser?
Yes, with a spliced wire (I botched trimming the block to fit it in the dizzy body so we had to splice on the wire from the old condenser with a 'properly' trimmed block).
Also installed new:
points
valve cover gaskets
center pin
starter
I'm not ready to implicate the last three of those.
asiab3 wrote:Was the braided wire correct before the issues? Or could it have been broken for a bit and not noticed until now?
Don't know, yes it could've been.
asiab3 wrote:Often times we notice things when looking for a problem.
Very possible.
Ludwig--1974 Westfalia, 2.0L (GD035193), Solex 34PDSIT-2/3 carburetors.
Gertie--1971 Squareback, 1600cc with Bosch D-Jetronic fuel injection from a '72 (E brain).
Read about their adventures:
http://www.ludwigandgertie.blogspot.com

User avatar
BellePlaine
IAC Addict!
Location: Minnesota
Status: Offline

Re: 1974 Bus with dual Solexes won't stay running

Post by BellePlaine » Fri Jun 26, 2015 8:51 am

You mention a vroom! and then the engine dies. To me, this sounds like a fuel problem. Perhaps you have enough fuel pressure to fill the carb bowls but not enough pressure to keep the engine running. When was the last time you've replaced the fuel filter?

Also, maybe check the points again. Perhaps the phenolic block that rides the cam has broken off or the points have loosed. For what it's worth, my braided ground wire is pretty beat up as well; not all of the strains have broken yet, but they're getting there.
1975 Riviera we call "Spider-Man"

User avatar
asiab3
IAC Addict!
Location: San Diego, CA
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: 1974 Bus with dual Solexes won't stay running

Post by asiab3 » Fri Jun 26, 2015 3:16 pm

Bosch condenser? Why was the old one replaced?
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

User avatar
Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
Status: Offline

Re: 1974 Bus with dual Solexes won't stay running

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Jun 26, 2015 10:50 pm

asiab3 wrote:Bosch condenser? Why was the old one replaced?
Because the old points were pitted. I think gap came out to 37* dwell, a generous gap.

Mitch, stay very focused here. A deteriorating start over the course of a day, sure sounds like a breaker point gap closing up. Pop cap, rotate engine with a wrench and LOOK, LOOK for exactly when breaker lobe is directly under the rubbing block of the points. Now check the gap. Does feeler blade (or matchbook cover) slip between the contacts? Do they hang up and refuse to go between? Make sure gap is good.

PLEASE also CHECK each fuel cut-off solenoid at the coil + for a perfect correspondent click as you pull each terminal off the (+) coil tree and re-touch. If you hear any chattering of a solenoid, inspect wire connectors for snug fit. If you'd like a phone consult, PM me, I will be available once I am in Seattle tomorrow night.

Remember that you need to prime the carburetors if you are in the midst of a no-start, because the fuel pump runs off the alternator (if you have the fuel pump safety relay).

With a cold engine:
Get the pump to run for fifteen seconds.
Step on accelerator pedal twice and let go.
Crank engine. Does it start?

Remember that in this glorious heat, all carbureted Volkswagens demand that you floor the accelerator on a warm engine and leave it there while cranking until the engine catches. Never pump the gas on a hot engine.

If you'd like a phone consult, PM me, I will be available once I am in Seattle tomorrow June 27th night.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

User avatar
whc03grady
IAC Addict!
Location: Livingston Montana
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: 1974 Bus with dual Solexes won't stay running

Post by whc03grady » Mon Jun 29, 2015 12:06 pm

Amskeptic wrote:Does feeler blade (or matchbook cover) slip between the contacts? Do they hang up and refuse to go between? Make sure gap is good.
0.018" felt pretty good. I'll try it again.
Amskeptic wrote:PLEASE also CHECK each fuel cut-off solenoid at the coil + for a perfect correspondent click as you pull each terminal off the (+) coil tree and re-touch. If you hear any chattering of a solenoid, inspect wire connectors for snug fit.
They click and chatter only if I'm being non-committal in how I touch/retouch. I'll check again however.
Amskeptic wrote:Remember that you need to prime the carburetors if you are in the midst of a no-start, because the fuel pump runs off the alternator (if you have the fuel pump safety relay).

With a cold engine:
Get the pump to run for fifteen seconds.
Step on accelerator pedal twice and let go.
Crank engine. Does it start?
I don't understand this but I'll tell you my method. Cold start->accelerator goes down as I turn the key. Hot start->accelerator is on the floor before key is turned, stays there until started.
What I guess I don't get is how to "Get the pump to run for fifteen seconds" when it only runs with the alternator (I have the safety relay). Crank it for 15 seconds?
Amskeptic wrote:Remember that in this glorious heat, all carbureted Volkswagens demand that you floor the accelerator on a warm engine and leave it there while cranking until the engine catches. Never pump the gas on a hot engine.
That's what I do/don't do.
Ludwig--1974 Westfalia, 2.0L (GD035193), Solex 34PDSIT-2/3 carburetors.
Gertie--1971 Squareback, 1600cc with Bosch D-Jetronic fuel injection from a '72 (E brain).
Read about their adventures:
http://www.ludwigandgertie.blogspot.com

User avatar
whc03grady
IAC Addict!
Location: Livingston Montana
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: 1974 Bus with dual Solexes won't stay running

Post by whc03grady » Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:50 am

I quintuple-checked the points: if that's not 0.018", nothing is. I fired it up: vroom! It was running great. I revved it a couple times and it sounded as happy as I'd ever heard it for maybe a minute and a half. Then it just died, just instantly died. I tried to start it again. It started like crap and ran like carp until it died again. Subsequent starts and running were crappy as well. The solenoids click happily.
Is it possible the condenser is a lemon or that the splice causes too much resistance for it to work properly?
Ludwig--1974 Westfalia, 2.0L (GD035193), Solex 34PDSIT-2/3 carburetors.
Gertie--1971 Squareback, 1600cc with Bosch D-Jetronic fuel injection from a '72 (E brain).
Read about their adventures:
http://www.ludwigandgertie.blogspot.com

User avatar
asiab3
IAC Addict!
Location: San Diego, CA
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: 1974 Bus with dual Solexes won't stay running

Post by asiab3 » Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:46 am

whc03grady wrote:
Amskeptic wrote:Remember that you need to prime the carburetors if you are in the midst of a no-start, because the fuel pump runs off the alternator (if you have the fuel pump safety relay).

With a cold engine:
Get the pump to run for fifteen seconds.
Step on accelerator pedal twice and let go.
Crank engine. Does it start?
What I guess I don't get is how to "Get the pump to run for fifteen seconds" when it only runs with the alternator (I have the safety relay). Crank it for 15 seconds?
To get the fuel pump to run, you will need to supply 12v to it's positive terminal. You can use a jumper wire from the battery (or any hot source, depending on where the pump is,) and touch + to + to get the pump to turn on. I like to keep a fuse (16a?) in line with the wire in case I drop it. Run the pump for fifteen seconds or so to make sure the carbs are full. Then disconnect your jumper wire and move on with diagnosis.

The alternator can need up to 1500 RPM to produce current, so cranking the engine over won't spin the alternator fast enough to fun your fuel pump.

Clear as mud?
Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

User avatar
Amskeptic
IAC "Help Desk"
IAC "Help Desk"
Status: Offline

Re: 1974 Bus with dual Solexes won't stay running

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:20 am

asiab3 wrote:
A
whc03grady wrote: What I guess I don't get is how to "Get the pump to run for fifteen seconds" when it only runs with the alternator (I have the safety relay). Crank it for 15 seconds?
B To get the fuel pump to run, you will need to supply 12v to it's positive terminal. You can use a jumper wire from the battery (or any hot source, depending on where the pump is,) and touch + to + to get the pump to turn on.
Robbie
A
Mitch, I might not have explained clearly enough.

B Yes, Robbie is correct. With the safety relay in place, the pump will only run when the alternator is putting out at idle and above.
You need to jump the 30 (hot wire from heater blower fuse) to the 87 (wire that goes to pump) on your safety relay any time you need to ensure that the carbs are properly primed with fuel in the bowls. It's eeeaaasssyyy.

Then, cold engine starts should be:
Pump accelerator pedal twice.
Crank engine with no accelerator. Engine should catch and hold a slightly raised idle. Then tap accelerator to reduce idle speed, and feel free to drive off when engine is cooperative.

C
I am not sure why you are having this issue, but I am guessing that it is simple. Check wiring integrity between the heater blower supply wire and the safety relay 30, and check wire from 87 to pump. Check wires at coil for security. If you see evidence of hacktastic horseshit, you be sure to heckle me.
ColinPointGapIs.016"
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

User avatar
whc03grady
IAC Addict!
Location: Livingston Montana
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: 1974 Bus with dual Solexes won't stay running

Post by whc03grady » Wed Jul 01, 2015 9:22 pm

Amskeptic wrote:Check wiring integrity between the heater blower supply wire and the safety relay 30, and check wire from 87 to pump. Check wires at coil for security. If you see evidence of hacktastic horseshit, you be sure to heckle me.
No hacktastic horseshit, but there was a broken wire from the big fat barrel fuse holder thing, you know, the one at the heater blower, to the safety relay. It was broken right at the end of the spade connector that goes into the fuse holder.
"This is IT!" I said.
I pulled the pretty corroded spade out, stripped some wire, and connected the fresh spade connector plus a little wire that came from the replaced condenser.
"Surely it'll fire up now."
I went up front. I pumped the accelerator pedal twice. I cranked the engine with no accelerator and...nothing. No firing whatsoever.
Amskeptic wrote:I am not sure why you are having this issue, but I am guessing that it is simple.
:banghead:
Ludwig--1974 Westfalia, 2.0L (GD035193), Solex 34PDSIT-2/3 carburetors.
Gertie--1971 Squareback, 1600cc with Bosch D-Jetronic fuel injection from a '72 (E brain).
Read about their adventures:
http://www.ludwigandgertie.blogspot.com

User avatar
asiab3
IAC Addict!
Location: San Diego, CA
Contact:
Status: Offline

Re: 1974 Bus with dual Solexes won't stay running

Post by asiab3 » Thu Jul 02, 2015 7:26 am

whc03grady wrote:
Amskeptic wrote:Check wiring integrity between the heater blower supply wire and the safety relay 30, and check wire from 87 to pump. Check wires at coil for security. If you see evidence of hacktastic horseshit, you be sure to heckle me.
No hacktastic horseshit, but there was a broken wire from the big fat barrel fuse holder thing, you know, the one at the heater blower, to the safety relay. It was broken right at the end of the spade connector that goes into the fuse holder.
"This is IT!" I said.
I pulled the pretty corroded spade out, stripped some wire, and connected the fresh spade connector plus a little wire that came from the replaced condenser.
"Surely it'll fire up now."
I went up front. I pumped the accelerator pedal twice. I cranked the engine with no accelerator and...nothing. No firing whatsoever.
Did you prime for fifteen seconds before trying to crank? How long did you crank for?
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

Post Reply