Hold Off On Headflow Masters Engines

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white74westy
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Re: Hold Off On Headflow Masters Engines

Post by white74westy » Thu Mar 17, 2016 8:58 pm

I have held off for a long time, in an attempt to be as fair as possible. However, I feel it is time I tell my story.

I may be one of the original complainants, that spurred Colin to start this thread. Take heed of the warnings and do your homework, before you give over your engine, and hard earned money, to this individual! Adrian claims to have over 20 years experience with VW engines. I don't doubt that for a moment. However, all that experience [rebuilding engines] cannot possibly compete with the teams of German engineers, that managed to keep these cars and their air cooled engines in production for several decades! That claim is preposterous! It has been alluded to on several occasions, that perhaps Adrian is overworked and subsequently forced to shell out sub-par work. Couple this with a desire to market "new and improved" oil cooling ideas: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewto ... highlight= and your sure to have an absolute disaster on your hands!

I sent Adrian an 1800cc engine, torn down and cleaned, back in early 2013. I bought a Raby 9590 cam kit, swivel foot adjusters, chromoly pushrods, a set of AMC heads for him to upgrade, etc. I sourced a pair of DRLA36 carbs. I had the guys at Blackline racing rebuild them and ship them directly to Adrian to ensure the optimum set up, before he returned the engine. It took a little longer than I was originally quoted, but no big deal...I'm pretty easy going, what's another few months after all these years??? I took delivery in September, 2013. Sadly, once I received the engine, I couldn't put it in as I had just had back and knee surgery. I'm saying this to make a point of full disclosure. By the time I was healthy enough to tackle the job, it was December 2014. Also, I did not get back all the parts I originally sent. I was missing a dipstick, oil filler tube, and a crankcase breather. I suggest, you take pictures of every item in each box and itemize them, before you send them out. I did this and it helped bolster my argument, Fortunately, I had spares, as what I received was not what I had sent. e.g. a Porsche 914 breather.

Colin came by for my first Itinerant visit: viewtopic.php?f=68&t=12346

Man I was stoked!!! Engine in...won't be long, I'll be able to start driving this thing around and keep promises I'd made to my children about getting the bus running and going camping in it. Wasn't too long after Colin's visit that I installed a couple of gauges and noticed that things weren't what they were supposed to be. I wasn't getting the oil pressure readings I should on a freshly rebuilt engine. In fact, I was nowhere near. To top it all off, it was leaking from several places, including the pushrod tubes and the front engine seal. Reached out to Colin and tell him what's going on. "Let's get scientific about things," he says. That's right up my alley. Look up the specs for oil pressure at prescribed temperatures and RPM ranges and begin to take notes. NOT GOOD!

I called Adrian and explained what was going on. I told him that I had a total of 6 miles on the engine, since the install. That's right, you read it correctly...six miles. It was enough to go around the block a couple of times. I also told him that I fully understood that I was outside of warranty etc. I even sent him video, showing the tests. Adrian was very even-keeled and stated that the timeframe didn't matter, and that he believed my assertions of not having used the engine. "I've been doing this a long time and my name is clean. Send the engine back so that I can look at it and get it fixed." Wow! I thought. This guy really is as stand-up as everyone says. Hopefully he'll send me back a fully functional engine. Once again, it took a lot longer than promised to get the engine back. I wasn't going to complain. It was his "busy" season and let's face it, he's taking the engine back outside of the 12 month warranty; who am I to complain? I finally got it back, towards the end of July and early August, 2015. In fact, I received it the same week we were moving houses. For some strange reason, I had the fool-hardy notion that I would be able to install it before we moved :scratch: When I asked what was wrong, I never got a clear answer. Rather, the fix was to put a larger oil pump on it. Adrian assured me he ran it on the bench and that it was in good working order. Needless to say, it was another red flag! In fact, so much so, that I told Colin, that I didn't think the Band-Aid was going to resolve the true, underlying problem.

Anyhow, I finally got it installed, this past weekend (March 2016), with another visit from Colin. It was good to get her back in! We got it started, but didn't have an opportunity to put her through her paces, as it was late. That would have to wait for another day. Colin came back, to help get her dialed in and to get her out on the road. It was a lot of fun. However, the whole time Colin was driving, I was paying close attention to the gauges. The numbers were not great. Not terrible, but not good. In fact, at idle speed, there is near 0psi. Things were just not right!!! We performed a leak down test and compression test. The leak down numbers were acceptable. The compression test numbers however were not. 125 psi on #1...Woohoo. 80 psi on #2...WT holy F??? 102 psi on #3 and 120 psi on #4. Not at all what I was expecting from a freshly rebuilt engine! Nor should anyone! By the way, I still have a decent sized leak, coming from the front engine seal.

Here is what I have learned. Sure, there are plenty of people running around with an engine that Adrian built for them and they seem to have no problems. That is not the case for me! Also, after a few conversations via PM, I am not the only one! All sorts of nightmares have started to surface, specific to the build quality of Headflow Masters. This is a nightmare. I traded my dollars for his time and expertise. It was an attempt on my part to free up additional time on my end, to help address other issues. Ultimately, the amount of money spent was not worth it!!! I would have been better off spending my time rebuilding the engine myself. It most certainly would have cost less in time and money. I can not in good conscience recommend the services of this business. Please, please, please, consider carefully what you are doing before sending this man your engine. I have nothing against him personally. He seems like a nice enough guy on the phone, but I reiterate stay clear of his business, until he manages to:

1) Get caught up on the workload at present
2) Get some additional help
3) Properly train that help
4) Begin to put out quality work again
5) Stop selling people "gimmick" gadgets that don't work

I'm going to maintain this engine to the best of my abilities, and attempt to enjoy driving it, for as long as it will last. I also plan to rebuild another engine I have, on my own. This time, I'll know exactly what went into the engine, what was done and the level of attention it received during the build. If you have the ability, I suggest you do the same!

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Amskeptic
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Re: Hold Off On Headflow Masters Engines

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Mar 19, 2016 8:13 am

Thanks for writing it out, white74westy. Please keep us apprised of how the engine works. Do I reiterate here that I think owners are likely to perform higher quality work than the shops?
Colin
(remembering the grit trapped under the paint in the valve covers . . . . . )
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

white74westy
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Re: Hold Off On Headflow Masters Engines

Post by white74westy » Sat Mar 19, 2016 10:22 am

Amskeptic wrote:Thanks for writing it out, white74westy. Please keep us apprised of how the engine works. Do I reiterate here that I think owners are likely to perform higher quality work than the shops?
Colin
(remembering the grit trapped under the paint in the valve covers . . . . . )
I most certainly will continue to report back on my experience. I have found this to be a most frustrating experience! I hope others will not be let down the way I have!

No arguments here on levels of care and attention paid to detail! Who is going to take care of your things better than you?

I took the old girl out for her longest drive yet, yesterday afternoon. Some observations:

I forgot what it is like to have people staring, waving, smiling etc. Pulled up to a stop light and had a fun conversation with the kids in the car next to me. After some silly back and forth banter, the kid riding shotgun says, "excuse me sir, but I think you're missing some parts." Bear in mind that the car is devoid of any glass or the interior, except for the front seats. :thumbleft: I got a good chuckle out of that, as did he when I asked if he had seen any of them?

Anyhow, back to the engine. All went relatively well, until the oil got up to temperature. My worst head temperature was 328* on #3, while idling at a stop light. It went back below 295* once I got going again. All the others were a constant 270* - 282*. Again, as the oil heated up, I had the idiot light begin to rear its ugly head. I could keep it at bay, by bringing up the idle a little by feathering the throttle very gently. This is a rather large PITA when you're trying to brake at the same time. The engine did OK otherwise. She seemed to stumble a little under load, which may be indicative of a timing/fuel air mix issue. I will be adjusting valves today and will fine tune carbs and timing afterwards. Will let you know what I find. I just cannot reiterate enough how angry and frustrated I am with the oil pressure! Just plain wrong for a freshly rebuilt engine to have these issues! Shoddy work for sure!

Jivermo
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Re: Hold Off On Headflow Masters Engines

Post by Jivermo » Sat Mar 19, 2016 11:29 am

White74, I share your pain. I, too, had to pull my engine and ship it back, as you are aware of. The grit in the valve covers that Colin mentioned were my valve covers, which felt as though a barefoot girl from South Beach had trod through, leaving a path of Atlantic coast sand. My engine is running well enough, very well, as a matter of fact but the nagging thought is there: is there something brewing here, something that Adrian also neglected, that is waiting in the wings for me. I spent a lot of money, time and effort to an end result of low expectations for a long engine life. When I retire, Colin and I will build a type 4 engine, and it will be a masterpiece. He doesn't know it yet, but that's the plan.

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energyturtle
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Re: Hold Off On Headflow Masters Engines

Post by energyturtle » Sat Mar 19, 2016 3:36 pm

These stories really bother me. I am now on my fourth engine build. I've been lucky to have not had any problems, except one blown head gasket due to a botched fly cut from the machine shop. All of the engines I've "assembled", (I won't call myself a builder as I'm still learning all the time), are still pushing their owners down the road. I've assembled a great group of resources for cores, parts, and machine work. I took Colin's advice years ago, and assembled my own. YOU ARE THE BEST CHOICE TO ASSEMBLE YOUR ENGINE. I had never assembled an engine in my life. I KNOW MOST OF YOU ARE AS CAPABLE, IF NOT MORE SO THAN MYSELF. Good luck out there. In the meantime I've got time on my hands and would be glad to help in anyway I can. I also have access to a run stand, and 90% of the tools and equipment needed to do anything on a type 4, with the exception of angle cutters, line bores etc. PM me if shit gets hairier with Adrian, or any other source. I don't claim to be perfect or even that good. One thing is for sure, the small amount of engines I've assembled are at a 100% success rate as of now, with no returns. Let me know if anyone wants to give me a shot.

Scottie

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Re: Hold Off On Headflow Masters Engines

Post by Jivermo » Sat Mar 19, 2016 4:06 pm

Very nice offer, Scottie, thank you! You're in on that retirement build now.

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energyturtle
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Re: Hold Off On Headflow Masters Engines

Post by energyturtle » Sat Mar 19, 2016 4:16 pm

Jivermo wrote:Very nice offer, Scottie, thank you! You're in on that retirement build now.
Thanks Ian. Building engines in Miami sounds pretty Fu$#%n Sweet. I'll hold ya to it:) Your westy is coming along great by the way.

Scottie

aerosurfer
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Re: Hold Off On Headflow Masters Engines

Post by aerosurfer » Sun Mar 20, 2016 4:23 pm

white74westy wrote:
Anyhow, back to the engine. All went relatively well, until the oil got up to temperature. My worst head temperature was 328* on #3, while idling at a stop light. It went back below 295* once I got going again. All the others were a constant 270* - 282*. Again, as the oil heated up, I had the idiot light begin to rear its ugly head. I could keep it at bay, by bringing up the idle a little by feathering the throttle very gently. This is a rather large PITA when you're trying to brake at the same time. The engine did OK otherwise. She seemed to stumble a little under load, which may be indicative of a timing/fuel air mix issue. I will be adjusting valves today and will fine tune carbs and timing afterwards. Will let you know what I find. I just cannot reiterate enough how angry and frustrated I am with the oil pressure! Just plain wrong for a freshly rebuilt engine to have these issues! Shoddy work for sure!
Could you elaborate on these numbers. Those temps seem incredibly low for CHTs. Do you have an uncompensated gauge? I have stock heads and once warmed up I idle between 310-330 and around town is 340-370 with longer and highways up to 360-4-ish until I'll back off.

I know you have had ongoing issues, but is there a chance your timing too retarded or mixture way to rich causing cooler temp
77 Westy deluxe

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asiab3
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Re: Hold Off On Headflow Masters Engines

Post by asiab3 » Sun Mar 20, 2016 4:34 pm

energyturtle wrote:YOU ARE THE BEST CHOICE TO ASSEMBLE YOUR ENGINE.
Preach, brother.
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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energyturtle
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Re: Hold Off On Headflow Masters Engines

Post by energyturtle » Sun Mar 20, 2016 5:30 pm

asiab3 wrote:
energyturtle wrote:YOU ARE THE BEST CHOICE TO ASSEMBLE YOUR ENGINE.
Preach, brother.
Here is rebuild #4. Thanks to all who helped with technical support. I learn something everyday. Today I learned that a busted diaphragm in a 32 year old EGR valve will wreack havoc on EVERYTHING. Still some tuning to go on the AFM. Once again, YOU ARE THE BEST OPTION FOR A REBUILD. If I have managed to get 4 of 4 right to a degree. ANYONE can do it. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hFqAbkJByNY

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Amskeptic
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Re: Hold Off On Headflow Masters Engines

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Mar 21, 2016 7:19 am

aerosurfer wrote:
white74westy wrote: worst head temperature was 328* on #3, while idling at a stop light. It went back below 295* once I got going again.
All the others were a constant 270* - 282*. for sure!
Could you elaborate on these numbers. Those temps seem incredibly low for CHTs. Do you have an uncompensated gauge? I have stock heads and once warmed up I idle between 310-330 and around town is 340-370 with longer and highways up to 360-4-ish until I'll back off.

I know you have had ongoing issues, but is there a chance your timing too retarded or mixture way to rich causing cooler temp
Those numbers are incredibly low because he does not have the thermocouples under the plugs. He put 'em somewhere else, perhaps closer to the air stream. If his numbers go up at at a traffic light, he is getting heat soak spikes. In the real world of Volkswagen cylinder head physics, the actual temperature numbers go up/down pretty much in synchronization with load.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

white74westy
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Re: Hold Off On Headflow Masters Engines

Post by white74westy » Mon Mar 21, 2016 4:57 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
aerosurfer wrote:
white74westy wrote: worst head temperature was 328* on #3, while idling at a stop light. It went back below 295* once I got going again.
All the others were a constant 270* - 282*. for sure!
Could you elaborate on these numbers. Those temps seem incredibly low for CHTs. Do you have an uncompensated gauge? I have stock heads and once warmed up I idle between 310-330 and around town is 340-370 with longer and highways up to 360-4-ish until I'll back off.

I know you have had ongoing issues, but is there a chance your timing too retarded or mixture way to rich causing cooler temp
Those numbers are incredibly low because he does not have the thermocouples under the plugs. He put 'em somewhere else, perhaps closer to the air stream. If his numbers go up at at a traffic light, he is getting heat soak spikes. In the real world of Volkswagen cylinder head physics, the actual temperature numbers go up/down pretty much in synchronization with load.
Colin
Colin is correct. I opted not to use the 14mm rings under the spark plugs. Rather, the heads were machined, so that the thermocouples are jbwelded, directly next to the spark plugs, so that I didn't have to worry about leaks etc. The gauge is an aeronautical gauge that has multiple functions. e.g. voltage, rpm, CHT, oil pressure, oil temp. etc. I also want to make sure that I'm clear when I say that I have not been very scientific in my methodology. When I made the abovementioned statement, I did so having merely looked down at the gauge, when I was at the stop light and one other time during the trip. That said, I also believe that the timing may have [and perhaps continues to be] mildly retarded. I am still tuning as I go along. The heads were "upgraded" AMC heads that were modified by Adrian. I'm also yet to take her out on a really long run, where I can actually record empirical data. I got a chance to get her out again today, and put her under a little load. The numbers seemed to be relatively consistent. I advanced the timing from 26* to approximately 28* and adjusted the carbs ever so slightly. The #3 cylinder was reading 331* and the rest were in the 285-290 range. I still feel like I have a long way to go on the tuning. She is not happy at all when I first start her up. Not happy when she is cold! The idle was horrible! Oil pressure is beautiful upon start up. Both gauges were reading well into the 40-50psi range. However, once again, once the engine and the oil begin to reach operating temperatures, the oil pressure begins to suffer tremendously. IF I were to allow it, the engine would die at idle, with 0 psi showing on either gauge.

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Re: Hold Off On Headflow Masters Engines

Post by white74westy » Mon Mar 21, 2016 5:07 pm

Jivermo wrote:White74, I share your pain. I, too, had to pull my engine and ship it back, as you are aware of. The grit in the valve covers that Colin mentioned were my valve covers, which felt as though a barefoot girl from South Beach had trod through, leaving a path of Atlantic coast sand. My engine is running well enough, very well, as a matter of fact but the nagging thought is there: is there something brewing here, something that Adrian also neglected, that is waiting in the wings for me. I spent a lot of money, time and effort to an end result of low expectations for a long engine life. When I retire, Colin and I will build a type 4 engine, and it will be a masterpiece. He doesn't know it yet, but that's the plan.
Hey brother,

I'd gladly trade for the barefoot girl from South Beach! In the long run, probably cost a lot less than the engine...just not sure how my wife might feel about that type of mistress. Guess I'll have to settle for the VW type. :flower:

The grit is just the tip of the iceberg. I thought I was hallucinating, the first time I did an oil change. The weird things that stuff produces visually, when it mixes with oil is quite impressive. The part I find most frustrating is not knowing exactly what piece of the puzzle is wrong. Perhaps it is more than one and each them acting in conjunction with the other is producing the results that I am witnessing. Not much fun either way! I'm glad to hear that yours is operating well at least. I am in the same boat as you, with the desire to create an engine that provides faithful service, with little in the way of distraction!

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Amskeptic
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Re: Hold Off On Headflow Masters Engines

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Mar 28, 2016 7:42 am

One year later from the first posting of this topic, what is the consensus on the recommendation of Headflow Masters engines?
Do I maintain the "hold-off" or let it expire?

Responses from ...

the miz
white74westy
Jivermo
VW Treasure
71whitewesty
THall

... welcome.

Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: Hold Off On Headflow Masters Engines

Post by Jivermo » Mon Mar 28, 2016 12:45 pm

I'd recommend holding off on Headflow. I like Adrian, as a person, but he cost me a serious loss of time, and my labor was not taken into account at all. If I was a prick, I guess i would have tried to sue him, but that is not in my nature to do. The engine that I have from him now has slightly lower compression in one cylinder-in the acceptable range, but lower, and the end play came in at more than I'd like, for the money that I spent. I did have Rimco build me up a spare engine, to specs and parts listed by Colin, with who I consulted, but I can't give a report on that, as it sits, crated, in my barn. Gary at Rimco was a bit lacking in the communication area, and it took longer than expected, but I had the luxery of time with the Rimco build. I drove my HFM engine over 100 miles this weekend, building up to almost the oil change and valve adjustment report.

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