Hold Off On Headflow Masters Engines

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white74westy
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Re: Hold Off On Headflow Masters Engines

Post by white74westy » Mon Mar 28, 2016 4:02 pm

Amskeptic wrote:One year later from the first posting of this topic, what is the consensus on the recommendation of Headflow Masters engines?
Do I maintain the "hold-off" or let it expire?

Responses from ...

the miz
white74westy
Jivermo
VW Treasure
71whitewesty
THall

... welcome.

Colin
It is a resounding NO from me!!! Do not waste your money at HeadFlow Masters! HOLD OFF - BUYER BEWARE!!! :angryfire:

This is the second go round for me on this post. I deleted the first, because I have nothing nice to say. We owe it to others that may be searching for information on where to spend their money, when it comes time to rebuild a type 4 engine, to steer well clear of this man's practices.

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THall
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Re: Hold Off On Headflow Masters Engines

Post by THall » Mon Mar 28, 2016 5:09 pm

Amskeptic wrote:One year later from the first posting of this topic, what is the consensus on the recommendation of Headflow Masters engines?
Do I maintain the "hold-off" or let it expire?

Responses from ...

the miz
white74westy
Jivermo
VW Treasure
71whitewesty
THall

... welcome.

Colin
Here's my story:
viewtopic.php?f=69&t=12552&p=214463#p214463

I sent my engine back first week of September 2015 for cam replacement. It was returned to me mid October. Upon opening the crate it was very apparent that it was rushed out the door; lots of greasy fingerprints and such on the shroud, missing tin screws, thermostat wasn't hooked up and it wasn't strapped down to the pallet well...wtf I thought.

I got everything in order and installed the engine. Despite the way things looked, it actually fired right up and ran very nicely. I was only able to put a couple hundred miles on it before the winter slumber, but so far so good. I plan on getting it back out in April to put some more miles on it prior to this years IAC visit where Colin and I will give it the once over.

As for the question at hand...No, I would not recommend Adrian for a rebuild currently based on my and others experiences in the past two years. The attention to detail just isn't there from what I've seen firsthand and have read in the forums. Should there be a next one for me, I'd love to learn how to do it myself.

Hopefully Adrian can turn things around.
'78 Westy 2.0 FI

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the miz
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Re: Hold Off On Headflow Masters Engines

Post by the miz » Tue Mar 29, 2016 9:18 am

...so I was on vacation in So Cal last week (stay tuned for an eventual post in "Camping&Fishing") and I decided to visit Adrian and my engine...which is in his shop now...if you're looking for a recap of the epic that has resulted from the initial purchase:
viewtopic.php?f=46&t=12582

So, I was sitting on the beach in Carlsbad last Tuesday morning and I decided to call Adrian's shop. He picked up on my 4th try and we chatted briefly. He was trying to tell me that he had run the engine for ~4 hours the previous day and it had no problems...and started to launch into a further explanation...I said: "Adrian, I'm 20 minutes from your shop...why don't I come over and we chat in person." He thought this was a good idea...and I visited him.
So I drove to Vista and eventually found his shop....wow...talk about 10 lbs of VW stuff in the 5 lb bag! He has a lot going on in that shop. Again, Adrian is super nice...very friendly...he always has been...he's just tough to get a hold of!

So...maybe ~4 hours of run time had been had been an overstatement...maybe not...who knows.

He fired my engine up and we started talking. He told me that my valves were way out of adjustment...I told him "I know, last thing I did was try to run with them adjusted as if they were solid lifters...to see if that was the problem". He said "oh, that explains it". So, I asked: "by the way...are these definitely hydraulic lifters? I'd like to know, for future adjustments...". He said yes, but that one should never need to adjust them...I said that I understood that point of view, but that sometimes, one has a push rod tube that leaks a tablespoon of oil every 2 minutes...and one has to readjust them...he agreed that that could happen...and reconfirmed that they were hydraulic lifters.

That conversation ended...he started revving my engine up...which had now been running for 5-10 minutes...he mentioned how he didn't like the rough idle...and attributed it to the "performance" cam he'd used "sounds like a muscle car idle", he mused...he revved it some more and and we listened...then...
Lo and behold...it smothered and died!
He restarted it...it ran for ~ 2 minutes...and died again...then he couldn't get it restarted.
"You see..." I said, "...this is what it does!".
He mentioned that it hadn't done that when he'd run it earlier in the morning...for a while...

He told me he thought there was a bigger problem here and that it had to do with the cam .
He said that he had been re building VW engines for over 20 years and he had always had success with his cam supplier until just recently...there had been 5 engines (or so) that he had sent out in roughly the last year that had problems...all related to the cam. He said he suspected this was the same issue my engine was suffering from.
"I'm not buying any cams form that guy anymore" he told me."You have a recipe for success and you stick with it" he added, "...until one of your ingredients is no good and it ruins the whole thing". He noted that he had a few very disappointed customers because of this problem and that it was damaging his reputation. I commiserated, briefly.
He mentioned that he had a new cam supplier he'd been working with (in Stockton...or someplace "up north") and that these cams had been working quite well. "They're a lot closer to stock cams" he said.
I mentioned that I had heard of this possible problem...and gave a brief, anecdotal and anonymous synopsis of what I understood to be the THall story. He said..."oh yeah" ..."that was about a year ago...here's that guy's cam". He picked up the cam in question and pointed out a visible flaw in one of the lobes that could only have come from machining, in his opinion. He mentioned that he had put one of these "new" cams in "that guy's" engine...and that he seemed to be happy. He looked down at the old cam and added something to the effect of "these ones are not made well any more" and then proceeded to show me another defective cam from the same source.
"I've got 5 cams on the way from the new source", he told me, "...one of them is yours; I'll get it put in and have your engine sent back to you before the end of April". He continued: "this kind of stuff is inconvenient for you and it's inconvenient and expensive for me...I know you don't want to pull your engine and ship it...you want to be driving your van!"
So we left it at him "making this right" for me...and chalking the incident up to a bad cam and an unfortunate experience altogether. He was very, genuinely, apologetic.
I hope he gets the problem sorted out quickly with this new, non-performance cam...and my engine will run well.

...and that's the rest of the story...

Sorry...needless to say: the jury is still out, with regard to my final level of satisfaction with this engine. Of course, I will continue to update the appropriate threads...that said...to answer the big question, I'd say "hold off" for now...
-miz
1982 Westy- Vana White

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asiab3
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Re: Hold Off On Headflow Masters Engines

Post by asiab3 » Tue Mar 29, 2016 2:39 pm

Miz, thanks for the update. Let me know if you need me to stop by Adrian's shop; I drive by every Monday, and my best friend just purchased an engine from him, and we stop by every now and then for parts and questions. My machinist and powder-coat shop are right next door, so if you (or anyone else here!) need a visual/checkup/ambassador service, I'm happy to help.

Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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wcfvw69
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Re: Hold Off On Headflow Masters Engines

Post by wcfvw69 » Tue Mar 29, 2016 3:17 pm

I want to learn here with this question.
How would the cam cause an engine to run fine and then suddenly die? I get that the cam could cause a bad/rough idle or depending on the duration and lift, not mesh with the fuel injection system on a stock bus. What I can't understand is why it would cause the symptoms the owner is experiencing?
1970 Westfalia bus. Stock 1776 dual port type 1 engine. Restored German Solex 34-3. Restored 205Q distributor, restored to factory appearance engine.

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Amskeptic
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Re: Hold Off On Headflow Masters Engines

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Mar 30, 2016 5:36 am

wcfvw69 wrote:I'm want to learn here with this question. How would the cam cause an engine to run fine and then suddenly die? I get that the cam could cause a bad/rough idle or depending on the duration and lift, not mesh with the fuel injection system on a stock bus. What I can't understand is why it would cause the symptoms the owner is experiencing?
I do not think that the cam is responsible for the miz's symptoms, I think it is a contributor to the lousy breathing at low rpms that may eventually cause the engine to suffocate in its own fuel-laden lazy idle air flow.

All of this tightens my stomach. We (all of us in the hobby) are at the mercy of our parts supply, and we have been remiss in demanding that these parts work! as! intended! Hopefully, our suppliers will step up over time, but we need to hold them accountable.

That said, Adrian has to be on top of his parts suppliers and he has to be the final arbitrar of any engine leaving his shop.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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the miz
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Re: Hold Off On Headflow Masters Engines

Post by the miz » Wed Mar 30, 2016 7:30 am

asiab3 wrote:Miz, thanks for the update. Let me know if you need me to stop by Adrian's shop; I drive by every Monday, and my best friend just purchased an engine from him, and we stop by every now and then for parts and questions. My machinist and powder-coat shop are right next door, so if you (or anyone else here!) need a visual/checkup/ambassador service, I'm happy to help.

Robbie
Thanks, Robbie. I will probably take you up on this, especially if we get through most of April and I've heard no updates on my engine.

miz
1982 Westy- Vana White

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wcfvw69
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Re: Hold Off On Headflow Masters Engines

Post by wcfvw69 » Wed Mar 30, 2016 9:32 am

Amskeptic wrote:
wcfvw69 wrote:I'm want to learn here with this question. How would the cam cause an engine to run fine and then suddenly die? I get that the cam could cause a bad/rough idle or depending on the duration and lift, not mesh with the fuel injection system on a stock bus. What I can't understand is why it would cause the symptoms the owner is experiencing?
I do not think that the cam is responsible for the miz's symptoms, I think it is a contributor to the lousy breathing at low rpms that may eventually cause the engine to suffocate in its own fuel-laden lazy idle air flow.

All of this tightens my stomach. We (all of us in the hobby) are at the mercy of our parts supply, and we have been remiss in demanding that these parts work! as! intended! Hopefully, our suppliers will step up over time, but we need to hold them accountable.

That said, Adrian has to be on top of his parts suppliers and he has to be the final arbitrar of any engine leaving his shop.
Colin
Gotcha.. When I read his post, I was thinking the cam can't be causing all the problems that engine has. I do remember another member on this site having a non-oem cam in his fuel injected bus. He was/is having all kinds of idle issues as a result of the duration/lift of the aftermarket cam.

Thanks for the answer Colin
1970 Westfalia bus. Stock 1776 dual port type 1 engine. Restored German Solex 34-3. Restored 205Q distributor, restored to factory appearance engine.

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THall
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Re: Hold Off On Headflow Masters Engines

Post by THall » Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:25 am

wcfvw69 wrote: I do remember another member on this site having a non-oem cam in his fuel injected bus. He was/is having all kinds of idle issues as a result of the duration/lift of the aftermarket cam.
Yep, that was me.

Miz, Thanks for sharing your conversation with Adrian. That was the first I've heard about a flaw in the cam I had previously. I certainly hope the "new" cam I currently have will stand the test of time. Like I said, so far so good, but I've only put on a couple hundred miles.
'78 Westy 2.0 FI

71whitewesty
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Re: Hold Off On Headflow Masters Engines

Post by 71whitewesty » Wed Mar 30, 2016 1:30 pm

I thought I posted something earlier today but I guess it didn't come through. Here's a condensed version.

15k on my type 1 stock 1600 long block since mid June 2015. No leaks, runs fantastic, have not touched it since Colin's visit last summer and there seems no need to do anything to it but drive it, change the oil and adjust the valves. Just got home yesterday from a 1,000 mile spring break ski trip with the kids. The bus has been rocking and I've been driving the crap out of it.

This was the second engine though as the first one had the bad cam and only lasted 36 miles. A bad cam for sure.
It sucked to take it out and tear it back down to send back. I wasted no time in doing that and had the engine back in the bus three weeks later. Adrian stood behind his work and made it right for me. That counts for a lot in my book. It was for sure a pain in the ass for both of us. No complaints on this one though. I have never met him but he treated me well when I spoke to him. He can be a bit hard to reach sometimes and I can only imagine he has a very full plate, especially when the parts fail prematurely.

At this point I would order another type 1 long block from him. I would not have him put the ball bearing oil relief valve or the aluminum valve covers on it though. I had him switch those back when I sent it back to him.

I like people that stand behind their work and he did for me. He never hesitated about taking it back to make it right.

I do sincerely hope he gets things turned around for the better. We all know he has the skills and I'm not ready to throw him under the bus yet.
Just my two cents.
Oh and I have no gauges to gloat or complain about head temps, oil pressure etc, I just drive it.

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asiab3
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Re: Hold Off On Headflow Masters Engines

Post by asiab3 » Mon Sep 26, 2016 7:26 pm

The plot thickens. About a month ago, a fellow in Michigan bought a turn key fuel injection 2.0L hydraulic valve T4 for his '76 automatic Riviera. I offered to help him chase an oil leak and figure out why his bus was swerving under braking.

I showed up at noon, and we had until three to work. At 1:55, I made the decision to pull the engine to eliminate a non-related scraping noise.

Image

While it was out, we found a leak at the reused oil cooler and a leak at the pushrod tubes on the left head side.

Around 9pm we got the engine in and went for a drive. Tried to do a ring break in, but I know now that speeds have to be reduced with the auto to eliminate kickdown issues. (Also unplug the electric decal valve.)

60psi oil pressure on startup, great!

30psi oil at cruise after a warm up... Ok....

4psi at idle. Well now.

We had to punt regarding the non-related issues, so we didn't get time to pull the rockers and do pushrod seals on this engine that hasn't even had a freeway run yet. We didn't get to investigate the oil cooler leak for pressure or flange leaks on this brand new engine. We did not get to investigate the daily lifter bleed down on his new engine. And we did not get to investigate the low oil pressure on this brand new engine.

How do I tell my friend this?
Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

Jivermo
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Re: Hold Off On Headflow Masters Engines

Post by Jivermo » Tue Sep 27, 2016 4:39 am

Having one of Adrian's rebuilds in my '78 Westy, all of this endless stream of defects and problems really gives me cause for concern, especially with my experience with the leaking oil gallery plug.

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asiab3
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Re: Hold Off On Headflow Masters Engines

Post by asiab3 » Tue Sep 27, 2016 8:05 am

Jivermo wrote:Having one of Adrian's rebuilds in my '78 Westy, all of this endless stream of defects and problems really gives me cause for concern, especially with my experience with the leaking oil gallery plug.
The bolt was installation error by the owner.
We had to diagnose where it was coming from, what to do about it, and how to separate it from a bled-down lifter noise first.

On the flip side, my friend Brian seems to have great luck with his T1 engines built by Adrian, just like 71whitewesty's. This might just be a T1/T4 issue, not an "all engines" issue.

Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

Jivermo
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Re: Hold Off On Headflow Masters Engines

Post by Jivermo » Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:48 am

Wow-thank you for the clarification, Robbie. I missed that about the owner error; but should have realized it from where the bolts were. Sorry to throw those stones in Adrian's direction. And, you are correct, all the problems that I am aware of are type 4 engines. Mine, and my pal VW Treasure's, who I referred to Adrian, and who experienced a lot of loose ends when he got his engine back. And, those other folks, here and on the Samba, who have encountered problems. How many times would you go to a restaurant where you had to send the food back to the kitchen constantly?

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Amskeptic
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Re: Hold Off On Headflow Masters Engines

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Sep 28, 2016 10:11 pm

asiab3 wrote: On the flip side, my friend Brian seems to have great luck with his T1 engines built by Adrian, just like 71whitewesty's. This might just be a T1/T4 issue, not an "all engines" issue.

Robbie
Your report of 4 psi at idle, Robbie, is actually within factory allowable specifications, and the truly critical specification (pressure at 2,500 rpm with oil temp @ 176*+) we do not know.

On the flip side of the flip side, 71whitewesty's first engine was destroyed during break-in due to contamination that wiped out the cam/lifters, so great luck needs to be more clearly assigned to Brian's engine (built when?), while 71whitewesty earned his great luck with the second engine only after a walk through the valley of great discouragement.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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