Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

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Bleyseng
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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by Bleyseng » Sat Oct 10, 2015 6:25 am

Latest post of the previous page:

No, the early cases are the stronger ones. Years ago there was a thread where cases were cut to show the differences.
Geoff
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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by asiab3 » Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:32 am

Riddle me this:

In the following picture from an unnamed Samba member, is the pressure relief piston being completely bypassed?

The silver fitting is "full flow out" and the brass fitting is "full flow in."

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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:06 pm

asiab3 wrote:Riddle me this:

In the following picture from an unnamed Samba member, is the pressure relief piston being completely bypassed?

The silver fitting is "full flow out" and the brass fitting is "full flow in."

Image
Are these fittings for an external cooler or an external filter?

Something is not making sense here. It appears that both fittings are in a non-pressure differential environment, so where is the flow? The silver fitting is at the end of the main bearing gallery, downstream of the pressure relief valve, it gets 100% oil at all times. The brass fitting is along the oil cooler feed gallery with the pressure switch. Guess what? The pressure switch also gets 100% pressure at all times.
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 91 414 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,113 miles

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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by kreemoweet » Sun Nov 01, 2015 12:00 am

It looks to me as if the silver fitting is just upstream of the relief bore, pretty much in line with the output from the oil pump. If perchance
there has been a plug put deep in the gallery just beyond the relief bore, that setup might work much like a "normal" full flow configuration. It's hard
to imagine there being much thread engagement of either of those fittings with the case, and one would think a normal NPT male fitting would
intrude awfully much into the oil channels, blocking flow. Perhaps they have been shortened? But WHY? To be filed under "VW abnormalities".

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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by Amskeptic » Sun Nov 01, 2015 1:02 pm

kreemoweet wrote: To be filed under "VW abnormalities".
I'm with you on this one.
Colin :scratch:
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 91 414 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by tommu » Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:39 am

The GEX, GE, single relief engine I'm rebuilding came with a solid oil control piston and a weak spring. The 1.7 CB engine I happen to have had a grooved piston with a good spring (shorter but pressure test is ok). Which piston should I use? Solid or grooved? Should I guess because the experts at GEX just grabbed a piston and spring from a bucket?

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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:16 pm

tommu wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 12:39 am
Which piston should I use? Solid or grooved? Should I guess because the experts at GEX just grabbed a piston and spring from a bucket?
I want your answers based on the article.

a) which piston into the relief valve bore?
b) which spring into the relief valve bore (weak or strong)?
c) which piston into the control valve bore?
d) which spring into the control valve bore?

Then I will explicate as necessary.
Colin
(sorry I was late to the classroom)
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 91 414 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,113 miles

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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by tommu » Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:25 am

a) which piston into the relief valve bore?
Usually Grooved. But I think there had been an exception for late single relief cases. (GD GE cases) which is entirely the point of my question :)
b) which spring into the relief valve bore (weak or strong)? Strong.
c) which piston into the control valve bore? Solid.
d) which spring into the control valve bore? Very weak.

Note - when I say weak I mean it took 12 or so lbs to depress so too weak to use - but not weak. The grooved piston is the relief valve from a 1.7 CB engine whereas the smaller non-grooved piston was from the single relief valve bore of the GD engine I am currently building. I do not trust anything that came with this GEX GD engine - but I want to use the right piston in the right hole!

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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:44 am

tommu wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:25 am
a) which piston into the relief valve bore?
Usually Grooved. But I think there had been an exception for late single relief cases. (GD GE cases) which is entirely the point of my question :)
b) which spring into the relief valve bore (weak or strong)? Strong.
c) which piston into the control valve bore? Solid.
d) which spring into the control valve bore? Very weak.

Note - when I say weak I mean it took 12 or so lbs to depress so too weak to use - but not weak. The grooved piston is the relief valve from a 1.7 CB engine whereas the smaller non-grooved piston was from the single relief valve bore of the GD engine I am currently building. I do not trust anything that came with this GEX GD engine - but I want to use the right piston in the right hole!

a) grooved piston into the relief bore . . . always and especially with single relief cases.
b) weak spring
c) solid piston
d) strong spring

Do you have a Bentley Manual? Did the above article make sense?
Bentley Manual has it right there, relief spring 14 #, control spring 16#
a) The friggen groove only works at operating temperature and allows more oil to flow through the cooler.
b) The weaker spring is determining the switch-over temperature to full flow through the cooler. As stated in the article, it does not determine operating temperature oil pressure in any way, and it only dumps oil into the case briefly at cold start-up.
c) for non-hydraulic cases, this simple plug only works to relieve oil pressure when the engine is young or cold or at high rpm.
d) The strong spring is the Be All End All pressure relief for high rpm operation. That 16# spring pressure is overcome at 60 psi system pressure.
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 91 414 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,113 miles

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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by tommu » Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:29 pm

I did read the articles, they did make sense and I do have a Bentley but I can not see a reference to your #14 or #16? Page 25 shows the oil pressure relief valve - #44 and states that the control valve was discontinued after November ’75 - so strictly speaking it applies to both solid lifter and then hydraulic cases such as my GD case. This is the only reference I could find to single relief cases other than the loaded spring length table on page 30 which says that the ’72 and later relief spring is loaded up at 39mm to 15-19.4 lb while the control spring at 26mm is loaded up at 3.8-4.4lb. Have I misunderstood? Doesn’t this make the relief spring strong and the control spring weak?

Image

The reason I asked which Piston I should use (solid or slotted) is that I’ve read some reference to the late ‘Hydraulic ready GD/GE cases moving to solid piston. I tried to find some sources for you, here’s one post from the recently absent Mr Kent: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewt ... ?p=8212208 “Type 4 engine Solid or Hydraulic lifter single relief with return from relief... These use a non-slotted piston in the relief.“

I gathered that a slotted piston was not required any more as oil is no longer being being sent to the oil cooler but instead to the pump inlet?

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Image
Image
EDIT: broken images restored.

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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by Amskeptic » Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:39 am

tommu wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:29 pm
I did read the articles, they did make sense and I do have a Bentley but I can not see a reference to your #14 or #16? Page 25 shows the oil pressure relief valve - #44 and states that the control valve was discontinued after November ’75 - so strictly speaking it applies to both solid lifter and then hydraulic cases such as my GD case. This is the only reference I could find to single relief cases other than the loaded spring length table on page 30 which says that the ’72 and later relief spring is loaded up at 39mm to 15-19.4 lb while the control spring at 26mm is loaded up at 3.8-4.4lb. Have I misunderstood? Doesn’t this make the relief spring strong and the control spring weak?

I gathered that a slotted piston was not required any more as oil is no longer being being sent to the oil cooler but instead to the pump inlet?
Good Lordy Lordy . . . we are at the mercy of publishers and whoknowswho.

So, my publication is currently the © 1978 Volkswagen factory manual diagram 17.2 where i wrote 14# to mean fourteen pounds of force and 16# to mean sisteen pounds of force.

I clearly need to do more research, and EVERYBODY needs to understand that the specifications are flying willy-nilly.

Your interpretation of the slotted piston needs a brush-up here. Oil is always always being sent to the cooler. It is merely *allowed* to go directly to the galleries when cold, when the piston is pushed down.

It is only only only when the engine is *fully warm* that the slot allows oil to escape the main gallery /old days into the sump/new days into the dump passage to the pump inlet. It is very important to understand that more oil is passed through the cooler than the galleries *because of the slotted piston*.
RSVP,
Colin :blackeye:
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 91 414 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,113 miles

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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by tommu » Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:06 am

Here's figure 17.2 from the PDF manual I am using.
17.2.jpeg
And it's a different version from the print version which isn't helping anyone:
cover.jpeg
Published 1979.
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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:06 am

tommu wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:06 am
Here's figure 17.2 from the PDF manual I am using.

17.2.jpeg

And it's a different version from the print version which isn't helping anyone:

cover.jpeg Published 1979.
Cam lobes. Well that is nice as far as cam lobes go.

My "17.2" is in the factory manual, not the Bentley manual, and it is an exploded photo diagram of the crankcase with all the bits blown out of it and suspended. In my diagram, there is the spring, the slotted piston and the washer/screw for the relief valve, and there is a spring, solid piston, washer/allen head screw plug over at the #1 push rod openings where the Type 4 control valve normally resides.

When we have conflicting specifications, we have to make "determinations" that most closely hew to our specific circumstances. We also have a flock, a circus, a hooting spectator gallery of experts splatted all over the internet yelling out anecdotes and expertise.

Here is what I can do for you. I can disassemble my two factory engine builds' relief and control valves, and I will report to you the spring lengths and pressures at specified compressed lengths.

Factory Engine One is the 1977 solid-lifter engine with two valves.
Factory Engine Two is the 1978 hydraulic lifter engine with just the relief valve.

Both engines have withstood the test of many miles with absolutely no problems. I will compare their results with my Factory Repair Manual and my Bentley Manual. It is all I can do.
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 91 414 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,113 miles

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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by tommu » Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:25 am

You have a 1977 block with two valves? Well that simply dismisses the idea that all 76+ cases were single relief. I'm guessing it's a GD? I can take a look at the control valve on Gary, it should be accessible from the engine bay shouldn't it? Not sure I could reach the control valve but I'll try.

The toes of my cams are worn. It would be lovely if they looked like 17.2.

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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:27 pm

tommu wrote:
Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:25 am
You have a 1977 block with two valves? Well that simply dismisses the idea that all 76+ cases were single relief. I'm guessing it's a GD? I can take a look at the control valve on Gary, it should be accessible from the engine bay shouldn't it? Not sure I could reach the control valve but I'll try.

The toes of my cams are worn. It would be lovely if they looked like 17.2.
Yes, solid lifters on my factory engine. Hydraulic lifters were introduced in the 1978 model year and the engines dispensed with the control valve.
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 91 414 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,113 miles

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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by Bleyseng » Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:00 pm

Cases were changed in 75 sometime to single control valves as VW was switching to the hydraulic lifters. If you have a 77 case with dual valves they were just using up old stock. Most 75 914's and all 76 914's were single control valve cases as all type 4 engines were assembled in one location. Yes, my 76 914 case is single control valved and racers prefer them due to the better oil pressure to the cam/lifters or a solid rod is installed instead of the spring.
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

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