Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

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Re: Lubrication Notes

Post by Amskeptic » Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:25 am

Latest post of the previous page:

asiab3 wrote:
Amskeptic wrote: (extra credit essay)
So after reading my article, what would you observe with a longer piston? The actual physics.
1. If two pistons with identical horizontal dimensions but different lengths were used in the same bore, the longer piston would wear less due to it's ability to stay straighter in the bore.

2. If the same spring was utilized for the two above pistons, the longer piston would require a higher dump hole.

3. Would the spring bottom out with a longer piston and need to be changed accordingly?

Robbie
So, out in the real world, if someone were persuaded to stick in a bigger piston, they could:
a) upon cold start, blow up of their cooler and or gallery plugs because the piston could not clear the dump hole with spring bind.
b) resultant heavier spring pressure would also cause early cut-in of the oil cooler.

I'll get back to you on dual relief dump relief.
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 91 414 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,113 miles

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Re: Lubrication Notes

Post by Bleyseng » Fri Mar 06, 2015 9:07 am

For years a oil pressure kit has been sold for type 4's with a longer piston to increase low oil pressure. Couldn't this also be used in a type 1?
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
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Re: Lubrication Notes

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Mar 06, 2015 12:43 pm

Bleyseng wrote:For years a oil pressure kit has been sold for type 4's with a longer piston to increase low oil pressure. Couldn't this also be used in a type 1?
For years, people have been selling hocus pocus. That was the point of my article.

a) if it is hot idle, a grooved piston still gives idle bypass, does not change idle oil pressure

b) if it hot, you still have a closed valve, does not change idle oil pressure

c) if it is cold, you are increasing cold oil pressure to the detriment of the gallery plugs, filter, cooler

d) its only value would allegedly be at hot high rpms where we street people don't go.
It would be useless without also making sure that the control valve was also "calibrated" to a higher pressure

thanks for reading anyway
:shaking: :shaking:
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 91 414 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
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Re: Lubrication Notes

Post by Bleyseng » Fri Mar 06, 2015 5:51 pm

Ding ding ding...

"D" is the reason 914 guys installed the longer oil control piston. Stock 914's oil runs hot 220-240F on the California freeways so this was the work around
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

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Re: Lubrication Notes

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Mar 07, 2015 8:05 am

Bleyseng wrote:Ding ding ding...

"D" is the reason 914 guys installed the longer oil control piston. Stock 914's oil runs hot 220-240F on the California freeways so this was the work around
Nope. Not giving you ^ that explanation here.

A) Longer "oil control" piston, or "relief" piston? Either way, it has no bearing on oil temperatures. How could it?

B) At no time was it discussed anywhere at Porsche or VW that Porsche 914s were having oil pressure problems out on the street. Neither did Type 4 buses. Only when us lazy hobbyists who came to take for granted that these engines would keep plugging along that oil pressure ever showed its face. I say, sloppy bearing clearances.

VW bus engines run hot on California freeways and sustain higher rpms too.
Porsche 914 engines were having issues on the track with scavenging, but I am here to tell you:
If You Are Low On Oil Pressure > Chances Are Good That Clearances Are Too Sloppy

Just because the Type 4 has an amazing lower end, does not mean we get to drive them to .012 endplay and .006" bearings and EXPECT decent oil pressure, no.

Are you aware that the Type 4 developed its own relief-dump-to-oil intake to help the pump get oil? That is the weird chamber deal near the cam gear wall.
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 91 414 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,113 miles

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Re: Lubrication Notes

Post by asiab3 » Sat Mar 07, 2015 8:35 am

Amskeptic wrote:Are you aware that the Type 4 developed its own relief-dump-to-oil intake to help the pump get oil? That is the weird chamber deal near the cam gear wall.
So you're saying it was designed to dump the "waste cooled" oil right near the pickup so the coolest oil would be fed to the bearings?
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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by asiab3 » Tue Mar 17, 2015 3:02 am

I asked Adrian many questions today when I picked up my heads, one of which was about the ball relief piston. He made it very clear how it works, walking me through six or seven cases of various states of wear. At the end he let me open the shrink wrap on a new VW case from Brazil to test the tolerances in comparison. He uses a new German relief piston welded on to a long small dowel, so you can feel the wear in the bore like you would with a valve guide field test. The new case had an imperceptible clearance, old cases were from a complete oval to a sloppy circle of wear.

What we do not see in most photos, (or notice, in Ian's vertical shot up the bore,) is the second part of the ball mechanism, which is a cylinder sleeve machined into the top of the bore. The ball is a perfect fit to the sleeve hole. This does two things:

1) When a hot engine is shut off, the spring seals the ball to the sleeve, so NO oil is allowed to leak out. He says this keeps the oil system primed between startups and extends engine life. He also said a side effect of this, was a nearly 100% reduction in hydraulic lifter bleed-down over non-seasonal periods of inactivity, since the oil has no where to go when one lifter is stuck compressed on a cam lobe.

2) When the crank case relief bore is worn out, the spring seals the ball against the sleeve so no oil pressure is lost due to wear under hot oil/low pressure situations like a hot idle after a freeway flog.

To me, this makes sense. The cutting of the spring still does not, but I did not ask. Adrian mentioned that the ball system was created after seeing how check valves in automatic transmissions are so much more oil-tight than the worn-out cylindrical piston-in-bore setup. He also mentioned the Porsche 356(?) engines had a piston twice as long, and they don't have these issues.

I owe him some money so I'll be back later this week. Should I continue peppering him with questions?

Robbie


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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Mar 17, 2015 7:42 am

asiab3 wrote: What we do not see in most photos, (or notice, in Ian's vertical shot up the bore,) is the second part of the ball mechanism, which is a cylinder sleeve machined into the top of the bore. The ball is a perfect fit to the sleeve hole.
Did you look at the pictures I drew? The red sleeve? Is it not there in the two bottom pictures? I somehow keep missing, even with text and drawn pictures (colored highlights, too!) what I am trying to say with enough clarity.
asiab3 wrote: This does two things:

1) When a hot engine is shut off, the spring seals the ball to the sleeve, so NO oil is allowed to leak out. He says this keeps the oil system primed between startups and extends engine life. He also said a side effect of this, was a nearly 100% reduction in hydraulic lifter bleed-down over non-seasonal periods of inactivity, since the oil has no where to go when one lifter is stuck compressed on a cam lobe.

2) When the crank case relief bore is worn out, the spring seals the ball against the sleeve so no oil pressure is lost due to wear under hot oil/low pressure situations like a hot idle after a freeway flog.

To me, this makes sense. Should I continue peppering him with questions?
Robbie
Yes please. Is your photograph the sleeve that Adrian installs along with the ball, or is it just a comparison of the factory piston to the ball?

Robbie, you are an intelligent and devoted devotee of these remarkable cars, and this would be a service to your fellow owners if you can both understand exactly what I am saying, and be able to communicate to Adrian my question.

Look at my illustration of the Adrian ball and sleeve. The stationary sleeve is in red. It is blocking the main gallery.

A) His system does not allow the oil to bypass the cooler during warm-up.
(but give him an opportunity to explain how oil bypasses the cooler when cold, and get back to us)
I believe the ball can't serve as a pressure-actuated "oil temperature thermostat."
I believe it is serving only as a total oil pressure control valve, just an on-off switch.
The factory piston in the bore is serving as a progressive diverter between the oil cooler passage and the main gallery passage. Please let me know if you see this.

Image

B) This is important! You wrote,
"When the crank case relief bore is worn out, the spring seals the ball against the sleeve so no oil pressure is lost due to wear under hot oil/low pressure situations like a hot idle after a freeway flog."

If you read my article, I claim that the factory piston is seated during any and all low pressure moments, it does not matter if the sides of the piston are sloppy in the bore, the crown of the piston is being forced against the seat with 17 pounds of spring force. These relief/control valves are closed at operating temperature! Do you, Robbie, think there is pressure loss due to oil leakage through the closed relief valves, if they are sealing at the top of the pistons? If the bearings flow three gallons a minute when they are worn and the viscosity is thin, how much do you think leaks past the relief and control valve piston tops?


Also, this notion that the oil system is sealed by the ball during seasonal inactivity is pretty much ludicrous. If we were to do a pressure bleed down test between an Adrian ball engine and a factory relief piston engine, you would see that the oil pressure drops to 0 in an equivalent period of time. Ask any hydraulic lifter being pushed by a 168# valve spring if it gives a damn what is happening at the relief valve. It will bleed down due to its own check disc's mood wholly regardless of whatever is happening in any of the oil galleries, including the lifter galleries!
Too many fanciful explanations going on at Adrian Ball Land.

NOW THEN, with a main gallery permanently blocked by the Adrian EndOThermostaticAction Stationary Sleeve, oil will still drain out between the bearings as it has since the beginning of the internal combustion engine era back in 1896.
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 91 414 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,113 miles

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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by asiab3 » Mon Mar 23, 2015 5:13 pm

Amskeptic wrote: The red sleeve? Is it not there in the two bottom pictures?
I do not remember seeing the sleeve in the original article, and I may have been too focused on the pictures of just the ball and modified spring.
Amskeptic wrote: Is your photograph the sleeve that Adrian installs along with the ball, or is it just a comparison of the factory piston to the ball?
…and be able to communicate to Adrian my question.
My photograph is of an actual sleeve he uses; unfortunately I did not get a great angle of the inner bore. Apologies.
I have not quite had enough time to fully digest this new information. But I am unclear what exactly your question is.
Amskeptic wrote: A) …give him an opportunity to explain how oil bypasses the cooler when cold, and get back to us)
aa) I believe the ball can't serve as a pressure-actuated "oil temperature thermostat." I believe it is serving only as a total oil pressure control valve, just an on-off switch.
I can see the new images, and the details in the past images.
A) Will do.
aa) I wonder if the sleeve takes up the exact space that is shown in your drawing. I no longer have an empty case nearby to scrutinize, but if the sleeve is machined into the case between the cooler gallery and the main gallery and DIDN'T block and passages, would it then be able to serve as VW designed?
Amskeptic wrote: B) This is important! You wrote,
"When the crank case relief bore is worn out, the spring seals the ball against the sleeve so no oil pressure is lost due to wear under hot oil/low pressure situations like a hot idle after a freeway flog."

If you read my article, I claim that the factory piston is seated during any and all low pressure moments, it does not matter if the sides of the piston are sloppy in the bore, the crown of the piston is being forced against the seat with 17 pounds of spring force. These relief/control valves are closed at operating temperature! Do you, Robbie, think there is pressure loss due to oil leakage through the closed relief valves, if they are sealing at the top of the pistons? If the bearings flow three gallons a minute when they are worn and the viscosity is thin, how much do you think leaks past the relief and control valve piston tops?
When you explain it this way I now understand how the factory vs. ball seal at the top of the bore. Because of the way Adrian explained the bore wall wear issue, I had a hard time separating the piston tops' abilities to seal off at low pressure from the pistons' leakage past the bore walls.
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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Mar 25, 2015 7:32 am

asiab3 wrote: My photograph is of an actual sleeve he uses; unfortunately I did not get a great angle of the inner bore.
Amskeptic wrote: A) …give him an opportunity to explain how oil bypasses the cooler when cold, and get back to us)
aa) I believe the ball can't serve as a pressure-actuated "oil temperature thermostat."
I believe it is serving only as an on-off switch.
I wonder if the sleeve takes up the exact space that is shown in your drawing. I no longer have an empty case nearby to scrutinize, but if the sleeve is machined into the case between the cooler gallery and the main gallery and DIDN'T block and passages, would it then be able to serve as VW designed?
If the sleeve did not block the main gallery, then the oil cooler would never get dedicated oil flow when the engine was hot.
In a nutshell, that sleeve kills the switching action between the cooler and the main gallery and is an abomination of miscomprehension.
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 91 414 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,113 miles

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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by Bleyseng » Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:31 am

Yes, the "kit" is two valves.

"Low oil pressure got you stressed? 914 engines are known for having low oil pressure. On an air cooled motor, having too low oil pressure could quickly lead to disaster. There are two pistons in the 914 engine case that regulate oil pressure. Replacing these pistons with these special ones results in higher oil pressure throughout the engine. Ideal for racing motors, or just heavy street use."

They are just longer versions I guess to increase spring pressure.
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by Amskeptic » Thu Mar 26, 2015 8:56 am

Bleyseng wrote:Yes, the "kit" is two valves.

"Low oil pressure got you stressed? 914 engines are known for having low oil pressure. On an air cooled motor, having too low oil pressure could quickly lead to disaster. There are two pistons in the 914 engine case that regulate oil pressure. Replacing these pistons with these special ones results in higher oil pressure throughout the engine. Ideal for racing motors, or just heavy street use."

They are just longer versions I guess to increase spring pressure.
I seriously think that this is all marketing nonsense, like the cascades of marketing nonsense that have plagued these cars from the beginning. Look at the phrase "having too low oil pressure could quickly lead to disaster" and go ahead and apply it to their stupid "easy fix" that they can SELL in a "kit", without ever dealing with the only true reason for low oil pressure - opened up bearing clearances.
**if you have low oil pressure, the pistons are already closed!!**
Pshaw,
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 91 414 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,113 miles

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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by asiab3 » Mon May 25, 2015 9:55 pm

Amskeptic wrote: [we interrupt this program for the following Type 4 Control Valve bulletin . . .
Type 4 control valves were NOT used in hydraulic lifter engines for the simple reason that the lifters happily utilized cold oil pressure to pump themselves up if and as necessary. Hydraulic lifters are continually bleeding themselves in operation at every down ramp off the cam lobes. I speculate that if you revert to solid lifters in a hydraulic non-control valve crankcase, the relief valve might spend too much time towards the bottom of its bore, playing "high rpm control valve", diverting oil that should be making a dedicated loop through the oil cooler]
I read on the internet, so it must be true, that Jake Raby only uses solid lifters in his T4 builds. :blackeye: Does anyone know his thoughts on the cases which lack control valves? Has anyone seen if his engines have the valves or not?

Robbie
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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by lilpig88 » Tue May 26, 2015 7:58 am

This is a very good question and I'd love to hear more thoughts on it.
It seems everything I've found searching forums and the web trends towards speculation instead of evidence. I have a hydraulic lifter case (GE - no control valve) with solid lifters and cannot help but wonder if there are any real implications here. I might attempt some testing this summer...maybe.

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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by Amskeptic » Tue May 26, 2015 8:54 am

lilpig88 wrote:This is a very good question and I'd love to hear more thoughts on it.
It seems everything I've found searching forums and the web trends towards speculation instead of evidence. I have a hydraulic lifter case (GE - no control valve) with solid lifters and cannot help but wonder if there are any real implications here. I might attempt some testing this summer...maybe.
The control valve with a relatively fresh engine will dump excess pressure and allow the cooler to cool a greater quantity of oil than the engine is consuming. I do not have the information or experience to dictate what the hydraulic lifters consume, but if you have solid lifters in a hydraulic case, you are losing the control valve function. The implications here would be that the cooler is only cooling the oil that goes through the bearings, no extra cooling.
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 91 414 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,113 miles

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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by asiab3 » Mon Oct 05, 2015 1:29 am

I have been troubled, recently, by my inclusion of a grooved relief piston in my T1 dual-relief engine build this year. It came out of the old engine, so why wouldn't I use it? :scratch:

The people who sell the NEW grooved relief piston also sell shiny 30mm and 36mm oil pumps. :silent:

The "Volkswagen Service Manual" (published by Volkswagenwerk in 1970 before their contract with Bentley) explicitely states:
From August 1969 an oil pressure control valve is located behind the main bearings. [diagram above] This valve assures that the oil supply to the crankshaft bearings is kept at a constant pressure. At the same time, the annular groove in the oil pressure relief valve has been discontinued.
(My 1974 and 1979 Bentley manual's make no mention of the single-relief plunger differences, only spring length and tension differences.)

It is now my official opinion that there should be no grooved piston in the dual relief T1 case, and I think VW backs this up in their early official service manual. kreemoweet posted about this in 2014 on TheSamba, but I did not read the post until now. As my engine is "fresh" with a mere 6,500 miles on it, I have not seen any oil pressure issues. However, with time I believe the grooved piston AND dual relief setup would begin to show low oil pressure at hot idle.

Thanks, gentlemen, for keeping me on my toes. :salute:
Robbie
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