The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

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asiab3
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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by asiab3 » Thu Feb 26, 2015 6:33 pm

Rod bearing clearances:

1- .0018"*
2- .0018"
3- .0018"
4- .0018"*

*My second set of measurements looked like these were closer to .0015". But the first round of plastigauge-ing gave me consistent .0018"s.

If these clearances are not too tight, I am a deep cleansing away from assembling the short block! :shaking2:

I am looking for more GOOD information on the combustion sealing between the cylinders and heads. (Lapping? Wilson doesn't mention it.) I am using dished pistons, so I don't think I'll have room to use a copper gasket even if I could find one in my size. 7.3 is my compression goal, though I will accept down to 7.1. The occasional trip to Baja means I need to be able to run this engine on salt water and barley wine if I need to down there.


Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:08 pm

asiab3 wrote: A) Rod bearing clearances:
1- .0018"*
2- .0018"
3- .0018"
4- .0018"*

B) I am looking for more GOOD information on the combustion sealing between the cylinders and heads.
7.3 is my compression goal, though I will accept down to 7.1.
a) Perfect. Perfect. Be clean, engine oil at assembly.

b) Release thyself from all manner of vexatious worry and torque your heads correctly.
Sufferers of head sealing problems have not:
* oem Kolbenschmidt cylinders
* parallel cylinder spigots in their cases
* cleaned beautifully
* -checked all cylinder head studs in case for stationary stability (loctite as needed)
* cleaned, oiled, and pre-run all cylinder head stud nuts until they are finger-turnable to equal degrees
*torqued both heads mirror opposite across the case in three stages plus an overnight 25 for the 8mm/30 for the 10mm and re-torqued in the morning to spec (18 ft/lbs 8mm) (23 ft/lbs 10mm) exactly opposite of the Bentley final tightening diagram since you are unclamping slightly,

Your engine came with 7.7 compression up to the 1970 model year when it dropped to 7.5 for the rest of the Type 1 bus run. Hit the 7.5 if you can.
(it will act like 7.1 as soon as you are over 3,000 feet elevation. :rabbit: )
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by asiab3 » Tue Mar 03, 2015 12:38 am

Bummer, I had a huge reply worked up and logged off the public computer. In a nutshell:

For ring break in, how soon does the 20-40-20-40-20-40 process need to begin? I have about a mile and a half of nice sized hills to get over before I get to a third gear run. Should I tow the bus to the flats for ring break in?

Should NOS pistons be able to shine like crap-peddling webpage show new pistons and cylinders? Or should the dull-gray-squeeky-clean look suffice?

Cleaning my room of all clothes, furniture, and dust,
Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Mar 03, 2015 3:21 pm

asiab3 wrote:Bummer, I had a huge reply worked up and logged off the public computer. In a nutshell:

For ring break in, how soon does the 20-40-20-40-20-40 process need to begin? I have about a mile and a half of nice sized hills to get over before I get to a third gear run. Should I tow the bus to the flats for ring break in?
Good lawdy no landsakes chile, just drive it nice and easy up and down the hills as you wish for the entire second oil change interval.

...............Initial Fill............................... Second Oil Change .............................................. Third Oil Change
...........20 minutes ..............(ring break-in) 100 miles ............................................................500 or 1,000 miles

Then just before your second oil change, do the ring break-in. You have a non-filtered engine, yes? Do five 20/40s. Let engine cool. Do five more. Drive fan speedy light load home. Change oil when you get home. Good enough.
asiab3 wrote: Should NOS pistons be able to shine like crap-peddling webpage show new pistons and cylinders? Or should the dull-gray-squeeky-clean look suffice?
Shiny pistons are usually forged, grey matte are usually cast.
asiab3 wrote: Cleaning my room of all clothes, furniture, and dust,
Robbie
So, you finished your rebuild? You managed to get everything balanced? Head torque went well?
Started easily? Initial oil pressure right away? Sounded good during cam break-in? Smooth? No leaks? Readjusted valves the morning after the 20 minute run?
Was this your first ground-up rebuild? Are you happy with it so far?
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by asiab3 » Tue Mar 03, 2015 10:04 pm

Amskeptic wrote: So, you finished your rebuild? You managed to get everything balanced? Head torque went well?
Started easily? Initial oil pressure right away? Sounded good during cam break-in? Smooth? No leaks? Readjusted valves the morning after the 20 minute run?
Was this your first ground-up rebuild? Are you happy with it so far?
Colin
Good lordy no! I'm cleaning my room to be the operating (assembly) theatre! I'm confident for most of it, though I have questions that keep me awake at night so I ask them here out of order. Right now I have EVERY part except for my 8mm under-cylinder tins, and potentially a non-grooved relief valve piston.

Balance: Rotating mass dynamically balanced by VW Paradise in San Marcos, CA. Rods done by them as well, end for end to .1 gram. Pistons + pins are within .2 grams, though I will make them within .1 grams before final scrub-cleaning.

Head torque: I am familiar with the correct patterns in increments mirrored across the case with an overnight stay at a higher value. I actually practiced this on a junk engine my uncle let me dismantle. I do wonder though, when is the correct time to put the sealant on the studs in the rocker box? After the overnight seating? Before returning to 18 ft/lbs?

I will be filling the oil galleries through the oil cooler stand on the morning of break-in day. I will crank without plugs until the pressure gauge shows me it is primed. I tested the carb on mom's bug so I know it works, and the distributor is the eighth one I've rebuilt, so I'm fairly confident in it as well. Startup should be instant as long as I get the plug wires on correctly. :geek:

Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Mar 04, 2015 12:39 pm

asiab3 wrote:
Amskeptic wrote: So, you finished your rebuild?
Good lordy no! I'm cleaning my room
Like, ohmygawduh.
asiab3 wrote: I ask questions out of order.
Tutally.
asiab3 wrote: When is the correct time to put the sealant on the studs in the rocker box,
after the overnight seating or before returning to 18 ft/lbs?
As you are installing heads. The sealant will be fine through a next-morning 90* undo/45* redo (or whatever number of degrees it takes to get to final torque).

If you ever re-torque after it has run through heat cycles/oil baths, then you'd have to perform full washer disassembly, decontamination/thread cleaning, reassembly.
asiab3 wrote: I will be filling the oil galleries through the oil cooler stand on the morning of break-in day.
That would mean that your fan housing is off at the start of First Start Day.
See, I am TOO smart STUPID.
:geek:
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by asiab3 » Wed Mar 04, 2015 11:14 pm

Yes, yes, thank you, and yes. Once I get this thing within calculable distance from the finish line, I'm taking some Volkscation days and going all in until it's done. (Those count as sick days, but my boss calls them that because he knows what I really do with them.)

Things I have learned this far by mistakes that may help others:
- When using oil as an assembly lube, too much is just the right amount.
- When making the final pass on torquing the rod nuts, if one rod is resistant to move, it's wrong. Noticing that the T1 "dot" on the "top" of the rod is not there means it's upside down, and putting it back on upside down will NOT help the situation.
- The lifters go in before the cam shaft.
- Weigh your pistons completely dry or you'll wonder why they keep getting lighter without taking material off…
- New dowel pins are worth the $5 because they fit the case holes snugly.
- Don't forget the oil slinger…

EDIT: Don't forget that damn woodruf key! I spent over an hour carefully weaseling it into the keyway without splitting the case. My selection of three rubber mallets helped immensely.
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by asiab3 » Mon Mar 09, 2015 9:06 pm

Case halves are joined, oil pump is in, oil cooler is on, and the short block is DONE!

Today I installed and removed my pistons and cylinders four times. Not only did I learn that upper and lower compression rings are different, but EVERY SINGLE discussion in books and on forums talks about three-piece oil scraper rings. Well mine are NOS KS pistons with single-piece rings. So not only did I remove and swap rings around to get good gaps and side clearances per Bentley, but I got to R&R and go with different orientations until I was happy.

I am pleased to report, than other than my matched NOS VW of Brazil matching cam and lifters, every part on the engine so far* is from VW of Germany. I am finding date stamps of 3/71-9/71 on most of my parts. It's really refreshing to build the engine this way; I can not fathom the amount of extra crap I would have to do to build an engine with aftermarket components. Grinding, swedging, cutting, and filing are so common with all that garbage, that this build has been a total joy once I had all the parts machined and into my realm of responsibility.
*not sure about the distributor cap, points, and cam plug.

Robbie

PS - gotta have the VWoA propaganda playing during major assembly. Seven tracks inspired by the Wolfsburg plant, including sheet metal stamping, automatic welders, and engine test sounds incorporated into the music. Bliss.

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145k miles with me.
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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Mar 11, 2015 10:51 am

asiab3 wrote:Not only did I learn that upper and lower compression rings are different, but EVERY SINGLE discussion in books and on forums talks about three-piece oil scraper rings. Well mine are NOS KS pistons with single-piece rings.
Top ring has an inner cut-out to push ring out against cylinder wall only during loading, so it can be less when cruising or coasting > less wear.

Second ring has a taper or a little outer lower cut-out so it scrapes on downstroke but glides on upstroke.

OEM Mahle/Kolbenschmidt have the preferable one piece oil control rings *designed specifically* for use with factory fine honing that is paired with molybdenum strip upper compression rings!

Aftermarket rings like Grant, need the typical coarse honing that we get with our AutoZone rent-a-hones.
Segmented aftermarket oil rings are three pieces, set gaps at 10:30 12:00 and 1:30.

From January 2006,
Amskeptic wrote: WARNING
Do not use aftermarket rings. Try to get an original one piece oil control ring. Do not replace any of the rings except for the one broken oil control ring. Check your #2 ring lands for any evidence of having been pinched at the time of impact.
Look at your top compression ring. Does it have a little black stripe in the middle? That would be the OEM Mahle molybdenum ring that requires the exact cylinder cross hatch surface finish supplied in the kit. Most aftermarket rings demand the rougher surface finish that your average cylinder hone knocks out. I guarantee you the longest ring life comes from the OEM rings with original cylinder honing.
asiab3 wrote: PS - gotta have the VWoA propaganda playing during major assembly. Seven tracks inspired by the Wolfsburg plant, including sheet metal stamping, automatic welders, and engine test sounds incorporated into the music. Bliss.
Playlist
Side One
1. Ze Paterland Muzik To Vake Up By
2. Das Kalisthetiks Befor Assembliestarten
3. ZeKleanzerMittzen Polka
4. AchtungSpecifikationKounten

Side Two
1. KonnectinRodKnockenBangen
2. nur ein ScherzVasOnlyLowOelPressuren
3. Ode an die Ingenieure Waltz

Viel Glück Sie Ihnen Äffchen
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by asiab3 » Mon Mar 16, 2015 11:31 pm

Wow, there are so many details (like the rings, for example,) that I would NEVER have seen by observation, but would have dutifully installed correctly because of Wilson. I treasure opportunities to learn intricacies like this, THANK YOU!

--

I am at 7.4 compression ratio. This is with:

Dished pistons, (2cc each;) heads fly-cut only a few thousandths; no gaskets, shims, or sealant; and feeler gauges to check deck height.


Deck height is .075", and combustion chamber volumes are 48.5cc, (50.5cc if you count the piston dish.) Do these sound like standard numbers? Are these even numbers we can compare? Should I be using a cylinder base gasket instead of sealant? With sealant?

At this point, I'm ready to have the engine fired up by the end of the week if there is nothing off about these measurements.

Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Mar 17, 2015 8:38 am

asiab3 wrote:Wow, there are so many details (like the rings, for example,) that I would NEVER have seen by observation, but would have dutifully installed correctly because of Wilson. I treasure opportunities to learn intricacies like this, THANK YOU!

--

I am at 7.4 compression ratio. This is with:

Dished pistons, (2cc each;) heads fly-cut only a few thousandths; no gaskets, shims, or sealant; and feeler gauges to check deck height.


Deck height is .075", and combustion chamber volumes are 48.5cc, (50.5cc if you count the piston dish.) Do these sound like standard numbers? Are these even numbers we can compare? Should I be using a cylinder base gasket instead of sealant? With sealant?

At this point, I'm ready to have the engine fired up by the end of the week if there is nothing off about these measurements.

Robbie
A .070" deck and you will have factory 7.5 compression. You are close, I say yer good to go. Because you do not want to increase deck height here, clean cylinder spigots in the case very well, use Permatex Aviation (what I use for case halves too) on case spigots and on the cylinder contact surfaces, allow to set somewhat. You know that the oil bath given to the rings/pistons will want to drool all over your Permatex rings. Get Permatex painted onto dry surfaces first. Then do your best to keep the oil away as you bring the piston/cylinders down to the case. (Are you going to pre-install pistons in cylinders then hook up at the wrist pins, or are you going to have pistons installed on rods first and deal with ring compressors and blahblah as you put the cylinders on?
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by asiab3 » Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:07 pm

Houston, we have oil pressure.

I was able to fill the galleries at the oil cooler and get the engine installed, (first time solo with a floor jack. My cousin and I tried for over an hour and couldn't get the dang thing in. Once he left, I had a short talk with the bus and it literally fell in.) I hit a few tin assembly snags so I was not able to do the cam run-in tonight. I did crank it for oil pressure without the plugs, (8 seconds to light out,) and I will do that again tomorrow before I install the plugs, static time, and vroom!

Colin, I can not possibly thank you enough for all your help. Regardless of what happens tomorrow, I know I have become a better person through this.

Robbie

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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by Amskeptic » Thu Mar 19, 2015 9:58 am

asiab3 wrote:Houston, we have oil pressure.
Regardless of what happens tomorrow, I know I have become a better person through this.
Robbie
That engine looks beautiful. Fingers are crossed.
We need another ambassador from Factory Engineering Really Works, and I hope your engine is it.
Colin
p.s. put on the fan belt :cherry:

pss - reroute the fuel hose to the carburetor, the generator throws major sparks when the brushes digest debris
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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asiab3
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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by asiab3 » Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:43 pm

That picture was my "oh man the phone battery is almost dead, better take this before it dies!"

Fuel line is good now, fan belt is adjusted with 10 or 11 shims with the 38a generator. The belt seems too short compared to how I'm used to belts riding higher in the pulley.






Oh, and it started.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgPJkf8dyOw
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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Re: The Tale of Buddy's Hot and Thrash-y Engine(s)

Post by asiab3 » Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:07 pm

First oil change was not surprising; it looked cleaner then the descriptions I've read. Nothing magnetic.


I'm having the trickiest time getting it to stay running. If I cover the carb with three fingers it wants to stay alive. Lean, says I. Very Confirmed, says the LM1. I have capped all vacuum ports, replaced carb base gaskets, and I'm out of ideas. What are the possibilities of the heat risers leaking into the intake manifold?

Are there any single-port oddities that I've missed? Potentially in manifold installation?
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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