Solid Hydaulic Lifter

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kleinevw
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Solid Hydaulic Lifter

Post by kleinevw » Tue Jun 24, 2014 2:14 pm

I recently purchased my first type 4, its a 76 bus with a transplanted 78 2L FI. It hadn't run in 5 years despite 3 PO's attempts. We'll one afternoon with my local club it was running, though with horrible valve clatter and crappy power and none of us had experience with hydraulic lifters. Per tbe recommendations, new oil and a little driven to pump up the lifters and no change. I've since adjusted the valves several times per Colin's procedure with mixed results. After my most recent attempt it sounded like a million bucks (too good, no valve chatter) and I had 0 power and no compression. I then realized the valves were all held open. Jumped under the bus again and the valve adjustment felt like it always has, but I realized they are very firm like on my Type 1 and the adjustment is opening the valve not the lifter preload. The only lifter that feels springy is exhuast 2. So is it feasible that all the lifters are crushed? Whats my next step.

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energyturtle
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Re: Solid Hydaulic Lifter

Post by energyturtle » Tue Jun 24, 2014 6:54 pm

Once I got to no chatter, that usually means the lifter if finally pumped up. I readjusted all valves to 0 lash. Not the 11/2 turns as described and everything smoothed out. Give it a shot it may or MAY NOT help.

Scottie

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airkooledchris
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Re: Solid Hydaulic Lifter

Post by airkooledchris » Tue Jun 24, 2014 10:03 pm

Remember that you CAN adjust your hydraulic lifters when warm. Just do it by the book for now, and do it again if it doesn't feel right. You'll be a pro in no time flat.

Once your dead certain you properly adjusted them, take it for a nice relaxing/gentle highway drive for 30 minutes.
After the first 300 miles of playing with things, if this is it's first run in a long time - change the oil again.
Ive had good luck with straight 40 weight oil when trying to get old hydraulic lifters to behave, especially if it's hot where you are.
1979 California Transporter

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Amskeptic
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Re: Solid Hydaulic Lifter

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Jun 25, 2014 10:13 am

kleinevw wrote:is it feasible that all the lifters are crushed?
Whats my next step.
Adjust to "0" lash. Drive easy gentle for at least 30 minutes with fresh oil, then adjust to 1 1/2 or 2 turns preload. You are right, it can be tricky to make sure that you are not opening valves with your preload turns, but a light touch to find the real "0" point is needed. Update us!
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

kleinevw
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Re: Solid Hydaulic Lifter

Post by kleinevw » Sun Jul 06, 2014 10:13 am

Sorry for the delay, went on vacation and had a little delay due to a run in with a hurricane. Well per everyones advice I carefully adjusted the valves to zero lash and went on a ride. Well a ride Is an overstatement, couldnt get over 20mph or 2nd on flat ground. Came home and checked the valves, interesting enough some of them were no longer at zero lash and had some play. I went ahead and adjusted warm to 1.5 preload paying special attention to start at zero lash. The bus sounded better and had dramatically more power than at zero lash but still less than it should. Ran another compression test today after a short warm up, the first numbers are dry, the second are with a tablespoon of oil in the cylinder.
1= 40,73
2=87,110
3=65,89
4=71,94
I'm starting to believe its not the lifters, valves and just a worn out top end. Any thoughts?


Interestingly in the process I realized it looks like a pre 76.5 FI on a 78 engine. I have a single vacuum advance distributor and the vacuum lines are run like a 78 per Ratwell site, but theres no vacuum line going to the EGR valve. It looks like I need to add another split o the EGR from the intake plenum, sound reasonable?

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Amskeptic
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Re: Solid Hydaulic Lifter

Post by Amskeptic » Sun Jul 06, 2014 1:43 pm

kleinevw wrote: Ran another compression test today after a short warm up,
1= 40,73
2=87,110
3=65,89
4=71,94
I'm starting to believe its not the lifters, valves and just a worn out top end. Any thoughts?
Adjust your valves to 0 lash again. Run briefly to warm lightly.
Now do compression test with 0 lash to guarantee you have all the compression that the engine can muster.

If you still have 40/87/65/71 dry, 73/110/89/94 wet, yes, you are looking at an engine overhaul.
The good news is that it is fun.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

kleinevw
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Re: Solid Hydaulic Lifter

Post by kleinevw » Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:56 pm

The results are in at 0 lash I had the following, 1st number dry, 2nd number with oil.
1=85,105
2=85,114
3=92,120
4=80,120

I did notice that if I'm not careful the rods will work themselves to the edge of the rocker cup, not centered, and affect my zero lash point. This may have been the cause of some of my previous crazy numbers.

So what now, should I try to give it some preload and deal with it, or is it time to resign myself to a rebuild?

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Amskeptic
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Re: Solid Hydaulic Lifter

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Jul 11, 2014 7:08 pm

kleinevw wrote:The results are in at 0 lash I had the following, 1st number dry, 2nd number with oil.
1=85,105
2=85,114
3=92,120
4=80,120

I did notice that if I'm not careful the rods will work themselves to the edge of the rocker cup, not centered, and affect my zero lash point. This may have been the cause of some of my previous crazy numbers.

So what now, should I try to give it some preload and deal with it, or is it time to resign myself to a rebuild?
Adjust your valves correctly and drive it!

When you adjust the preload, MAKE SURE that the lower end of the rocker is going in towards the case!
IF you only see the stupid valve spring retainer pushing in at the top, you may have a bound lifter that will only open the valve. That would be the pressure relief ball jammed in its cup.
I say, are you up for lifter disassembly/clean/rebuild/reassembly?
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

kleinevw
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Re: Solid Hydaulic Lifter

Post by kleinevw » Sun Jul 27, 2014 3:01 pm

Update:

Set the lifters back to 1.5 turns as suggested and drove it. It still has no power and is barely driveable as it requires downshifting to 1st to get up many of our Georgia foothills. I took it to a friends and we did a leakdown test, at 100PSI input I got 95 or better on all cylinders. Is their a correlation when you have crappy compression but decent leakdown values?

I decided to start chasing the problem via a different route and thoroughly checking the ignition system, No abnormalities noted, good spark on all 4. I then started checking the FI sytem. The results are as follows:

Cylinder Head Temp
Resistance Test- Failed

Air Flow Meter
Resistance b/w terminals and upon flap motion-Passed

Aux Air Regulator
Power to Regulator-Passed
Resistance b/w terminals-Passed
Closing at Temp-???? I definitely have a decreased vacuum at temp, but its still present, and the
Inner half of the casing is mobile

Thermo-Temp Switch
Resistance-Passed
Power with starter-Passed

Cold Start Valve
Voltage at less than 86 degrees- No Voltage ever but its always hot in Georgia right now
Resistance-Passed
Fuel leak test-Passed

Double Relay-New one installed

Fuel Pump- New one installed

Fuel Pressure-30PSI

Fuel Injectors-
Power-Passed
Resistance-Passed
Haven't checked spray or flow

Throttle Switch
Power upon open throttle-Passed

Series Resistors-Passed

I bypassed the cylinder head temperature sensor by grounding it and disconnected the Cold Start valve and still the bus runs like crap. I am at a loss. I ordered the temp sensors but still I'm missing something. Only other clue I can think of is it seems to be drinking gas. I must be getting less than 5MPG.

Good news, if I can't get it figured out I have my first appointment with Colin scheduled for October.

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Amskeptic
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Re: Solid Hydaulic Lifter

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:39 am

kleinevw wrote: Good news, if I can't get it figured out I have my first appointment with Colin scheduled for October.
Be prepared to get peppered with questions and instructions if we are checking ten buses in two days.
Your compression/leakdown numbers are looking pretty good, the essential engine seems OK.
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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energyturtle
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Re: Solid Hydaulic Lifter

Post by energyturtle » Thu Jul 31, 2014 7:27 pm

Not to hijack the thread but, I adjusted my valves today as I heard a little chatter coming from #1 and #2. I pulled the valve cover and #1 was clackity loose on intake and exhaust. I waited for engine to cool, checked again and they were still loose so I went forward with the valve adjustment. All felt good except 1. I went the 1.5 turns as well and it ran like shit. I went back to 0 and all was good or slightly better than before. Here is the kicker.....#1 and 2 are set at 1.5 and #3 and 4 are set at 0. I adjusted one cylinder at a time and started the engine briefly. This seems to be what it prefers. My compression check verifies this (I think), as all are above 134psi.
Scottie

ktk833
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Re: Solid Hydaulic Lifter

Post by ktk833 » Wed Jul 06, 2016 10:50 am

Hi.
I was reading through this post with all interest as I am experiencing the exact problems stated....(1,600cc van had been lying sale for about 10 yrs).
on initial start, tapers rattled a while but went quiet. Van had no power but got home.

I adjusted valves to .006- at the time, I didn't know how to adjust hydraulic lifters....and performance was great. I still felt this was not full power coming from a 1,600cc as I have a dp type 1 engine that gives me a benchmark.

I later learnt how to adjust the hydraulic lifters.....did it but was in a big mess..... No power at all.

Re-adjusted and drove wide and far....to get problems on the way. The van kept stalling. I've adjusted back to .006

having read this post, I see 0 lash is what I should adjust to. Question to Kleinevw- how did your story end? You mentioned that some lifters softened up..... What did you finally adjust to- 1.5/2 or the 0 lash??? Where were your problems????

Energyturtle, what was your final resolve????

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Amskeptic
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Re: Solid Hydaulic Lifter

Post by Amskeptic » Thu Jul 07, 2016 7:29 am

ktk833 wrote:Hi.
I was reading through this post with all interest as I am experiencing the exact problems stated....(1,600cc van had been lying sale for about 10 yrs).
on initial start, tapers rattled a while but went quiet. Van had no power but got home.

I adjusted valves to .006- at the time, I didn't know how to adjust hydraulic lifters....and performance was great. I still felt this was not full power coming from a 1,600cc as I have a dp type 1 engine that gives me a benchmark.

I later learnt how to adjust the hydraulic lifters.....did it but was in a big mess..... No power at all.

Re-adjusted and drove wide and far....to get problems on the way. The van kept stalling. I've adjusted back to .006

having read this post, I see 0 lash is what I should adjust to. Question to Kleinevw- how did your story end? You mentioned that some lifters softened up..... What did you finally adjust to- 1.5/2 or the 0 lash??? Where were your problems????

Energyturtle, what was your final resolve????
Well,
Kleinevw needed a new fuel injection system and has an engine on borrowed time.
Energyturtle, what was your resolution?
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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MountainPrana
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Re: Solid Hydaulic Lifter

Post by MountainPrana » Mon Aug 15, 2016 9:07 pm

Had half of mine out again today. For the 4th time to bleed them. This time I filled them with Marvels Miracle Oil instead of regular engine oil. I'll see if this makes any difference in their ability to self adjust. Anybody know if there is an easy way to check the condition of valve springs?

Tim

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Amskeptic
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Re: Solid Hydaulic Lifter

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Aug 17, 2016 7:08 pm

MountainPrana wrote:Had half of mine out again today. For the 4th time to bleed them. This time I filled them with Marvels Miracle Oil instead of regular engine oil. I'll see if this makes any difference in their ability to self adjust. Anybody know if there is an easy way to check the condition of valve springs?

Tim
The engine's valve springs? Not if installed. Due to a progressive rate of pressure increase as the height diminishes, it is difficult to check pressures without a test rig. I usually have all springs out at the same time and can compare free heights, but if you are checking in a series, that is not possible.
Colin
(p.s. I doubt that valve springs have a thing to do with your lifters refusing to adjust their plungers. The lifters only release oil during the valve-closed period)
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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