Proper Engine Head Temperature 2.0 FI w/ Solid Lifters

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Re: Proper Engine Head Temperature 2.0 FI w/ Solid Lifters

Post by Amskeptic » Thu Nov 21, 2013 12:14 pm

WaterDawg wrote:Thanks Colin,

A bit scary, but will do it :D
But I think, I will wait till I am at the new location tomorrow so i can be sure to be out of the snow line if we end up having an issue.
There I have a full garage and can hide from the weather coming in behind me.

Do you think its OK, to drive it as long as she's under 450 degrees?

The gauge is the VDO, but I think I will swap to a digital once I am home.
VDO = non-compensated gauge head. Just ignore it.

It is assuming that the gauge itself is 70* at all times.

Because the thermocouple is calibrated for 70*, the readings will only be accurate at that temperature in the engine compartment.
If it's colder, the CHT temperature will appear higher.
If the temperature is higher, like my usual 100* or more, then the reading will appear to be lower by 30* (the difference between the engine compartment temp and the calibration temp).
This is unfortunate. This is why we hate VDO.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: Proper Engine Head Temperature 2.0 FI w/ Solid Lifters

Post by WaterDawg » Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:54 pm

So this was interesting today.
I didn't have the time to make adjustments as I needed to get East and South before the snow hit.

I did pay attention to the gauge though.
Yesterday and the Day before, while Driving East across a South Wind (blowing North) at 20 mph gusting to 30 mph, my temp would increase to 450
As soon as I turned North, they would drop to 350.

Now today. No wind, running highway - interstate.

Morning:
37 degrees
800 RPM
275 degree head temp.
parked

On the road:
37 degrees
2600 RPM
300 degree Head Temp
30 mph

Highway:
32 degrees
2800 rpm
350 head temp
5 mph

now it gets interesting - Interstate
32 degrees
3600 rpm
400 degree head temp
70 mph

and it would stay at 400 from 65mph to 80 mph.
OMG, I had it up to 80!!!

I'm going to mess around a bit tomorrow night or the following day if I have the time.
I think I want to zero everything back and reset the timing and idle and see what happens now that we are out of the huge cross winds which were affecting the temps.

Can I simply replace the gauge and sending unit and utilize the existing wire? If so, I may change this on the road.

I'm not seeing any lack of performance or increase nor decrease in fuel mileage.

I DID stop avoiding Ethanol Gas today. Not sure if what I put in had it thought as it did not say here like it did n the other states.
Larry Jensen
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Re: Proper Engine Head Temperature 2.0 FI w/ Solid Lifters

Post by WaterDawg » Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:34 am

Amskeptic wrote:
WaterDawg wrote:Thanks Colin,

A bit scary, but will do it :D
But I think, I will wait till I am at the new location tomorrow so i can be sure to be out of the snow line if we end up having an issue.
There I have a full garage and can hide from the weather coming in behind me.

Do you think its OK, to drive it as long as she's under 450 degrees?

The gauge is the VDO, but I think I will swap to a digital once I am home.
VDO = non-compensated gauge head. Just ignore it.

It is assuming that the gauge itself is 70* at all times.

Because the thermocouple is calibrated for 70*, the readings will only be accurate at that temperature in the engine compartment.
If it's colder, the CHT temperature will appear higher.
If the temperature is higher, like my usual 100* or more, then the reading will appear to be lower by 30* (the difference between the engine compartment temp and the calibration temp).
This is unfortunate. This is why we hate VDO.
Colin
OK, in that case, I'm setting everything back to "0" (aka, how I picked it up) and take it from there.
I'll replace the VDO with a better gauge once I'm back home and before we head to Key West.
Larry Jensen
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Re: Proper Engine Head Temperature 2.0 FI w/ Solid Lifters

Post by WaterDawg » Fri Nov 22, 2013 4:35 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
WaterDawg wrote:so after turning the screw all the way clockwise, she ran just above 350...thought all was good, but then I turned East again and she climbed up to 400-450!

Turns out that I was being hit with a 30-40 mph cross wind coming out of the south and blowing north. There was so much wind force, she was working extra hard, but as soon as I would turn north (I'm in the Dakotas so the roads go N/S or E/W LOL) she'd drop down to about 360*

Going to check the timing tomorrow morning before I start.
I have a Timing Light with a Tach on it now too.
Are you Dakota Digital or the hated spawn of Satan VDO?

Adjust the timing at 3,200-3,400 rpm to 28* BTDC. For FUN . . . write down your highway numbers at 65 mph with all variables noted, then retard the timing to 25*BTDC, and drive as similarly as possible and let us know.

You have very nice head temps until you are on the road under load, so we want to richen your high rpm/load side of the map without turning the idle into Bejing.

If you are bottomed out in the mixture screw, do the following:

Warm up engine. Shut if off.
Set the AFM mixture screw to 4 turns out from the bottom.
Reset the black cog 6 turns clockwise.
(your engine may barely run now)
Look at the little iddybiddy teeth on the wiper thing that dances all over the place.
Make a paint match-mark between the chromy metal plate upon which it sits and one of the teeth.
Loosen the screw that holds the wiper.
Move wiper 1/2 tooth towards rich (this is a powerful adjustment), lightly set the screw so it won't move here.

Start engine. Let it warm up. Check your mixture at idle and at 2,700 rpm, throttle cable must be held in position by non-human means. If engine rpm increases just a bit when you move the wiper just a tiny bit, you're good. If it increases very noticeably (150-200 rpm) turn the mixture screw down a full turn (now at 3 turns from bottom). Recheck mixture. A slight uptick when you move it CCW is good.

Don't get goofy here, don't get ham-handed. On the road, you have all the time in the world to slowly work the adjustments into the sweet spot.

Test drive and report back.
Colin
Hey Colin,
Well I was going to forget this, put everything back to "O" and continue on this AM.
Then something happened when I was resetting to "O" and Sandy would start, but had no power. Then she stalled and would not stay running at idle, then I saw she had no power under throttle either....
So i had no choice. The only think I messed with was the AFM. :scratch:

I pulled up this thread on the AFM adjustments : viewtopic.php?f=50&t=7761
and read through it step by step. :study:

While I dd not complete it all the way through. I moved the Idle Fuel Mixture Screw out 4.5 turns, adjusted the sweeper just as you told us to and then moved the cog counter clockwise.

She started and ran. I check the adjustments as you told us to and made a few more adjustments to the sweeper and cog and then the idle screw. She ran real good so i too off down the road. :thumbleft:

Once on the highway she was running at:
36* outside air temp
3400 RPM
-400* Head Temp
65 MPH

She'd climb to just under 450* if I hit a strong and consistent cross wind, but she ran strong and I'm getting 15.16 mpg.

If she holds like this, I'll go over everything again once home next week. But I wanted to just say THANK YOU for your post and let you know it helped me get on the road and running properly again. :salute:

So now, what gauge's should I get and where should I mount them?
I currently have the VDO Oil Pressure and Head Temp. I'm thinking I should add a third Oil Temp gauge and switch them all out to non VDO gauges.
Larry Jensen
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Re: Proper Engine Head Temperature 2.0 FI w/ Solid Lifters

Post by Bleyseng » Fri Nov 22, 2013 5:04 pm

I use the VDO oil temp and pressure gauges and the DD CHT as that's all I need. Keeps track of everything going on.
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
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Re: Proper Engine Head Temperature 2.0 FI w/ Solid Lifters

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:51 pm

WaterDawg wrote: So now, what gauge's should I get ?
I despise gauges. They fill you with both complacency and they distract you from DRIVING!.

With no gauges, you are more paranoid, alert (and careful with your maintenance).
That said, I use only a Dakota Digital CHT gauge for that unlikely weird situation that you cannot forsee.
Oil pressure, I trust my mechanicking.
Oil temperatures, I trust my spotless stock engines.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: Proper Engine Head Temperature 2.0 FI w/ Solid Lifters

Post by Bleyseng » Sat Nov 23, 2013 8:29 am

As I drive I don't look at them all that much as I know the engine is now running good. I have taught my co-driver what the gauges should be reading so if something changes she tells me. (She likes to drive fast and over the speed limit).
In the Ghia she now drives about the max of 60 mph as it gets much louder over that(convertible so wind noise at 70mph is terribly loud). I have no gauges in it but I use the old method of checking the dipstick for how hot it is (oil temp) and open the engine bay and smell the engine (if its running too hot it smells like it).

A VDO gauge is only good if you calibrate it so you know its at least correct at 212F. Your engine was rebuilt by Adrian so you should be pretty confident that its a good engine. What oil are you running in it? What spark plugs? Have you timed it at 3500rpms to 28 degree BTDC?
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

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Re: Proper Engine Head Temperature 2.0 FI w/ Solid Lifters

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Nov 23, 2013 3:49 pm

Bleyseng wrote:As I drive I don't look at them all that much as I know the engine is now running good. I have taught my co-driver what the gauges should be reading so if something changes she tells me. (She likes to drive fast and over the speed limit).
In the Ghia she now drives about the max of 60 mph as it gets much louder over that(convertible so wind noise at 70mph is terribly loud). I have no gauges in it but I use the old method of checking the dipstick for how hot it is (oil temp) and open the engine bay and smell the engine (if its running too hot it smells like it).

A VDO gauge is only good if you calibrate it so you know its at least correct at 212F. Your engine was rebuilt by Adrian so you should be pretty confident that its a good engine. What oil are you running in it? What spark plugs? Have you timed it at 3500rpms to 28 degree BTDC?
He is supposed to be experimenting with me both 28* and 25* FOR FUN if he can keep the pesky variables to a minimum.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: Proper Engine Head Temperature 2.0 FI w/ Solid Lifters

Post by WaterDawg » Sat Nov 23, 2013 6:15 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
Bleyseng wrote:As I drive I don't look at them all that much as I know the engine is now running good. I have taught my co-driver what the gauges should be reading so if something changes she tells me. (She likes to drive fast and over the speed limit).
In the Ghia she now drives about the max of 60 mph as it gets much louder over that(convertible so wind noise at 70mph is terribly loud). I have no gauges in it but I use the old method of checking the dipstick for how hot it is (oil temp) and open the engine bay and smell the engine (if its running too hot it smells like it).

A VDO gauge is only good if you calibrate it so you know its at least correct at 212F. Your engine was rebuilt by Adrian so you should be pretty confident that its a good engine. What oil are you running in it? What spark plugs? Have you timed it at 3500rpms to 28 degree BTDC?
He is supposed to be experimenting with me both 28* and 25* FOR FUN if he can keep the pesky variables to a minimum.
Colin

I rode most of today in a snow storm, including tonight where the roads turned to ice.
Rather experiment once I am back home. :bounce:
Larry Jensen
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Re: Proper Engine Head Temperature 2.0 FI w/ Solid Lifters

Post by Bleyseng » Sat Nov 23, 2013 6:27 pm

I drove an hour each way in 30F weather at 65-70mph and my CHT's were 300F using a DD gauge just to give an idea. Cold weather does cool off your heads much better and being at Sea level .
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

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Re: Proper Engine Head Temperature 2.0 FI w/ Solid Lifters

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Nov 26, 2013 12:18 pm

Bleyseng wrote:I drove an hour each way in 30F weather at 65-70mph and my CHT's were 300F using a DD gauge just to give an idea. Cold weather does cool off your heads much better and being at Sea level .
Way too cool. Can you experiment with raising temps? Your engine will thank-you.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: Proper Engine Head Temperature 2.0 FI w/ Solid Lifters

Post by WaterDawg » Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:20 pm

I'm going to install a DD gauge once back in VT and get this dialed in, but I'm noticing that one day she will run and idle good and the next she does not. I've been under 1000' now for a few days. I'm beginning to think the AFM is not holding true.

Colin, if you recall, Steve had trouble with it holding a proper idle too. I'll adjust it again now that I'll be here in Yorktown, NY for a few days before I take off for the rest of my journey home via the New England Coastline. I had previously stopped at the point of adjusting the Fuel Idle Mixture Screw as everything was running good once I moved it out as your article described.
Larry Jensen
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Re: Proper Engine Head Temperature 2.0 FI w/ Solid Lifters

Post by Bleyseng » Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:42 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
Bleyseng wrote:I drove an hour each way in 30F weather at 65-70mph and my CHT's were 300F using a DD gauge just to give an idea. Cold weather does cool off your heads much better and being at Sea level .
Way too cool. Can you experiment with raising temps? Your engine will thank-you.
Colin
Oil was at 180-220F so I thought it was running ok. I'll check the thermostat to see if its sticking.
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

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Re: Proper Engine Head Temperature 2.0 FI w/ Solid Lifters

Post by Amskeptic » Thu Nov 28, 2013 9:23 am

Bleyseng wrote:
Oil was at 180-220F so I thought it was running ok. I'll check the thermostat to see if its sticking.
Sure your apples taste great, but what about the oranges?

Carbon needs to be burned off , well, as best you can, in the heads. If your valves are tan, donta woiwwyabouddit.
"Well, how do I know if my valves are tan?"
Exactly.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Re: Proper Engine Head Temperature 2.0 FI w/ Solid Lifters

Post by Bleyseng » Thu Nov 28, 2013 10:49 am

Amskeptic wrote:
Bleyseng wrote:
Oil was at 180-220F so I thought it was running ok. I'll check the thermostat to see if its sticking.
Sure your apples taste great, but what about the oranges?

Carbon needs to be burned off , well, as best you can, in the heads. If your valves are tan, donta woiwwyabouddit.
"Well, how do I know if my valves are tan?"
Exactly.
Colin
By using a borescope, that's how...or look at the plugs. BTW This wasn't the typical CHT temps but when I took the hour drive in the 28-30F weather. Normally, I am at 350F-375F at 50-70F depending on the MPH.
Just got the new LM meter so I'll hook it up to see the AFR driving around too now that I am walking around again.
Happy Thanksgiving
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

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