Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

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tommu
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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by tommu » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:17 pm

Bleyseng wrote:
Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:00 pm
Cases were changed in 75 sometime to single control valves as VW was switching to the hydraulic lifters. If you have a 77 case with dual valves they were just using up old stock. Most 75 914's and all 76 914's were single control valve cases as all type 4 engines were assembled in one location. Yes, my 76 914 case is single control valved and racers prefer them due to the better oil pressure to the cam/lifters or a solid rod is installed instead of the spring.
Do you recall if your single relief case has a solid or grooved piston?

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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by Bleyseng » Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:33 am

No, but I'll pull it out next time I go to my storage as it's a untouched factory engine
Geoff
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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by tommu » Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:14 pm

Bleyseng wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:33 am
No, but I'll pull it out next time I go to my storage as it's a untouched factory engine
As in never used, from the factory NOS untouched engine?

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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by Bleyseng » Fri Mar 23, 2018 6:22 am

No, it's out of 75,000 mile 914 2.0L that hasn't been opened up by some lame mechanic
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by Gnasha » Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:12 am

Hydraulic lifters are continually bleeding themselves in operation at every down ramp off the cam lobes. I speculate that if you revert to solid lifters in a hydraulic non-control valve crankcase, the relief valve might spend too much time towards the bottom of its bore, playing "high rpm control valve", diverting oil that should be making a dedicated loop through the oil cooler.
Over the last 9 months I thought I'd researched everything about turning hydraulic into solids, reading above it looks like I've missed something. I have 2 Type 4 2.0 engines stripped, Codes GE and GD. The GE was hydraulic lifters and the GD solid. Unless I've missed something they both have one oil pressure relief at the LHS rear of the engine and no pressure control valve between no. 1 lifter bores. The relief valves are identical.

My Intention was to rebuild the GE case ( came as Hyd.) as a solid lifter, because its the better case and now I'm in two minds.
Should both of these engine be Hydraulic?
Would the engine possibly run too hot at high revs?
Thanks for reading this
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tommu
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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by tommu » Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:09 am

I have solid lifters in a GE case with a grooved relief valve. I don't have an oil temperature gauge, but my head temps are ok. Cruising around town at 330/340f, 380-394f on the freeway at 65 and up to 407 on long uphills. The one thing I found is that the engine will not build pressure quickly when first running or after a good oil change. Steve Kent talks about this a lot as a symptom of no control valve. He also mentions that the single relief valve has no groove. It would be great if he would contribute here on this topic.

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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:06 pm

Gnasha wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:12 am
hydraulic lifters and the solid both have one oil pressure relief at the LHS rear of the engine and no pressure control valve between no. 1 lifter bores. The relief valves are identical.
Yes they are. The physics at the oil cooler is identical regardless of how the other end of the oil distribution takes care of itself.
Gnasha wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:12 am
Should both of these engine be Hydraulic?
Would the engine possibly run too hot at high revs?
You make your own determination of what lifters to use with whatever matched camshaft (solid or hydraulic profiles) you have.

Engine will run whatever temp it wants to run regardless of control valve/hydraulic lifter relief. The grooved piston in the relief valve is the "turbo cool" feature. If you do your homework as far as viscosity, bearing clearances, and cleanliness, then subsequent hot oil temps suggest that you have issues.
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,660 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 206,845 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 118,840 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,570 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 89,009 miles

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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by Gnasha » Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:34 pm

tommu wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:09 am
I have solid lifters in a GE case with a grooved relief valve. I don't have an oil temperature gauge, but my head temps are ok. Cruising around town at 330/340f, 380-394f on the freeway at 65 and up to 407 on long uphills. The one thing I found is that the engine will not build pressure quickly when first running or after a good oil change. Steve Kent talks about this a lot as a symptom of no control valve. He also mentions that the single relief valve has no groove. It would be great if he would contribute here on this topic.
Thank you for the reply. I've also read Steve’s post on Samba very interesting as is this one. It seems you have little or no issues running solid lifters with one grooved relief valve which is good. I feel more confident in pursuing my build project. Are you going to fit an oil temp gauge? I’m not sure what the solution is if any to prevent delayed oil pressure on start up. Using the car every day would probably resolve the problem.

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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by Gnasha » Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:36 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:06 pm
Gnasha wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:12 am
hydraulic lifters and the solid both have one oil pressure relief at the LHS rear of the engine and no pressure control valve between no. 1 lifter bores. The relief valves are identical.
Yes they are. The physics at the oil cooler is identical regardless of how the other end of the oil distribution takes care of itself.
Gnasha wrote:
Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:12 am
Should both of these engine be Hydraulic?
Would the engine possibly run too hot at high revs?
You make your own determination of what lifters to use with whatever matched camshaft (solid or hydraulic profiles) you have.

Engine will run whatever temp it wants to run regardless of control valve/hydraulic lifter relief. The grooved piston in the relief valve is the "turbo cool" feature. If you do your homework as far as viscosity, bearing clearances, and cleanliness, then subsequent hot oil temps suggest that you have issues.
Thank you for your valued input, much appreciated

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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by tommu » Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:46 pm

I don't have any plans yet to add an oil temperature sensor. CHT, AFM and Speedometer give me enough to worry about as it is!

I have only ever had problems with delayed oil pressure when cranking for first run and after a very thorough (drip all night with the taco plate off) oil draining.

The first instance was resolved by pulling the oil pressure sensor after a lot of cranking. I don't really know why - but after re-installing that sensor I the oil warning light went out on the first crank of the starter.

After the oil change I just stopped, waited and turned the starter again. The light went out pretty quickly.

I'd say you have little to worry about - especially if you follow Colin's advice. Concentrate on carefully building that engine.

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Re: Lubrication Notes

Post by Bleyseng » Thu Jun 04, 2020 8:55 am

Amskeptic wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:25 am
asiab3 wrote:
Amskeptic wrote: (extra credit essay)
So after reading my article, what would you observe with a longer piston? The actual physics.
1. If two pistons with identical horizontal dimensions but different lengths were used in the same bore, the longer piston would wear less due to it's ability to stay straighter in the bore.

2. If the same spring was utilized for the two above pistons, the longer piston would require a higher dump hole.

3. Would the spring bottom out with a longer piston and need to be changed accordingly?

Robbie
So, out in the real world, if someone were persuaded to stick in a bigger piston, they could:
a) upon cold start, blow up of their cooler and or gallery plugs because the piston could not clear the dump hole with spring bind.
b) resultant heavier spring pressure would also cause early cut-in of the oil cooler.

I'll get back to you on dual relief dump relief.
Colin
The Porsche 914 parts suppliers have sold for years a longer piston for the type 4 engines to increase oil pressure. Earlier cut in of the oil flowing to the oil cooler sounds good to me. I think I have one in the stash to take a picture of . I don't see how this would blow up a oil cooler though unless you were using straight wt 40 oil. Nearly everyone runs 10-40 or 20-50 wt oil which cold isn't thick enough.
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by MikeS56 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:33 am

Hi, this is a great thread with tons of valuable info.
However, I have an issue that I can’t find addressed directly. I have a Type 4 2ltr CU engine with solid lifters and no oil control valve.
I rebuilt it a couple of years ago with all new crank and cam shaft bearings, camshaft, oil cooler and CB Maxi 1 26mm oil pump. I had to relieve the oil pump body to clear the cam gear bolts.
At start-up it takes ages to build up oil pressure. Even with gently blipping it takes ~15 to 30 secs to put out the oil light and even longer, more than 2 minutes, to build up to about 1 Bar at idle. When revved to ~3000 rpm it gets to about 3 Bar, which suddenly drops to ~1 bar at idle. Oil pressure drops quickly as the engine warms up. So I get 1 bar running and less than 0.5 bar at idle, but at least the oil light stays out.
When stopped, hot, and restarted the oil pressure stays really low and the oil light only goes out when it’s blipped.
I have replaced the oil pressure relief valve and oil filter and also replaced the fuel pump pushrod, after converting to electric pump, and had the engine out (again) to reset the crank endfloat. All of this has made no difference to the slow oil pressure build up.
To be honest I could live with the low oil pressure if it came up quickly on start-up, but I really want some way of curing the slow oil pressure build up at start-up, which I know means no oil is flowing.
I am prepared to remove the Fan Housing to get at the oil pump, but want to know what I need to look for. Many thanks, Mike

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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by MikeS56 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:46 am

I just took the oil pressure sender off to check for oil flow. I got nothing cranking it on the starter. When I started it I got barely a dribble until I revved it up. Then I suddenly got a good flow of oil. No sign of bubbles or foam. I assume this means a suction side leak, either in the pickup tube or the pump housing.

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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by Gnasha » Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:00 am

I have just re-build a stock 2 L type 4. I filled the oil cooler and the filter as much as possible it still took a good 30 seconds of cranking to get 3 bar. I then returned to crank the engine again and it still took 10 to 20 seconds to get the 3bar. That is with the engine cold and not started. I’ll be starting the engine soon. I hope this helps.

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Re: Lubrication Notes (upd 03/08)

Post by SlowLane » Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:04 am

Mike, I would be viewing that aftermarket pump with a jaundiced eye. Sloppy tolerances are the norm for those things and have been for decades. Doesn't matter what brand (well, maybe not Gene Berg, but good luck finding one of those). You would be much better off with a stock type IV pump if you can find one.

Gnasha, I think that getting 3 bar in a score of seconds just from using the starter is quite good. Don't forget that the starter only cranks the engine at a fraction of idle speed. Once the engine catches your oil pressure should come up quickly. I would suggest a pre-oiler to load the passeges for your first startup, but you've already done so with your cranking.
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