82 Vanagon Engine Case Align Boring

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MountainPrana
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82 Vanagon Engine Case Align Boring

Post by MountainPrana » Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:17 pm

So, my wife Molly and I are rebuilding our engine and need to have it align bored. We are in Saint George, Utah and wondering if anyone in the air-cooled community out there in the west knows of any reputable shops in the Las Vegas area as that is pretty close for us. We are also wondering if the best bet is to ship it to Rimco in Southern California as they seem to have been around for a long time and have a good reputation. Also wondering if it is recommended to get the bearings from them after the align boring?

Thanks for any input on this!

Tim

hoping to find some time to put words to all the pictures that we have been taking!

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Re: 82 Vanagon Engine Case Align Boring

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:20 pm

MountainPrana wrote:
Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:17 pm
So, my wife Molly and I are rebuilding our engine and need to have it align bored. We are in Saint George, Utah and wondering if anyone in the air-cooled community out there in the west knows of any reputable shops in the Las Vegas area as that is pretty close for us. We are also wondering if the best bet is to ship it to Rimco in Southern California as they seem to have been around for a long time and have a good reputation. Also wondering if it is recommended to get the bearings from them after the align boring?

Thanks for any input on this!

Tim

hoping to find some time to put words to all the pictures that we have been taking!

Who declared that an align-bore was necessary based on what?
Colin
(say hello to Molly, I still remember some excellent little pizza ? coffee thang up there, back in the days of low compression)

Image
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 93,996 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,113 miles

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MountainPrana
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Re: 82 Vanagon Engine Case Align Boring

Post by MountainPrana » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:36 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:20 pm


Who declared that an align-bore was necessary based on what?
Colin
(say hello to Molly, I still remember some excellent little pizza ? coffee thang up there, back in the days of low compression)
We're not entirely sure that it does need to be done. The new standard size crank bearings that we have were loose in the case which led to a flurry of calls and research and a return to our local machine shop guy who had citrus tanked the case to ask his opinion. He said it looked like the main bearing #4 saddle looked a bit suspicious, and recommended that we consider having it looked at and possibly done. Molly discovered the Rimco stamp in the flywheel area showing that it had been bored in the past. We made more phone calls which all led to Rimco to have any work done on it so we ended up packing the case up and shipping it to Rimco to have them inspect it and are waiting to hear the verdict from them. Molly talked to Don over there for quite a while on several occasions and we are a bit more educated on the bearing sizing and how all that works. We should hear back sometime today about the actual inspection.

Update: The engine case doesn't need to be line bored again according to the folks at Rimco. The #1 is a custom size bore while #'s 2,3 and 4 are standard size line bores from the previous work. It does mean that we will have to return the STD silverline bearings to the Type 4 Store and either have them source the right ones for us or get a custom set made from Rimco, which is what we will probably do at this point. My brother will pick up the case and bring it to us at Thanksgiving as we are all meeting up in San Luis Obispo.

I finally have some time with computer access while we are visiting family so I'll start another thread for the rebuild. I have a lot to learn and hopefully posting here will not only be of a benefit to me but perhaps to someone else down the road who runs into similar questions.

Tim

(Molly says hi back at ya, and says now that we've torn down the engine we have more clues about that low compression. like how about cylinder head bolts that were not torqued anywhere near evenly. One was only finger tight, several were around 40 pounds and a few were actually in the 20's.)

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Re: 82 Vanagon Engine Case Align Boring

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:20 pm

MountainPrana wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:36 pm
Update: The engine case doesn't need to be line bored again according to the folks at Rimco. The #1 is a custom size bore while #'s 2,3 and 4 are standard size line bores from the previous work.
It does mean that we will have to return the STD silverline bearings to the Type 4 Store and either have them source the right ones for us or get a custom set made from Rimco,

(Molly says hi back at ya,
how about cylinder head bolts that were not torqued anywhere near evenly. One was only finger tight, several were around 40 pounds and a few were actually in the 20's.)

Be very very careful with Rimco, and really document exactly (!) what you ordered and document what you actually get, I am not kidding. That means a second opinion measurement of all case bores, bearings, and crankshaft! PM tommu for details . . . :shaking:

We all know that 40 lbs is over factory spec of 23 ft/lbs. Are you saying that was the breakaway value? Normal. Fingertight? not normal.
ColinColdandRainyHereInFlorida
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 93,996 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,113 miles

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Re: 82 Vanagon Engine Case Align Boring

Post by MountainPrana » Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:35 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:20 pm

Be very very careful with Rimco, and really document exactly (!) what you ordered and document what you actually get, I am not kidding. That means a second opinion measurement of all case bores, bearings, and crankshaft! PM tommu for details . . . :shaking:

We all know that 40 lbs is over factory spec of 23 ft/lbs. Are you saying that was the breakaway value? Normal. Fingertight? not normal.
ColinColdandRainyHereInFlorida
Ugh, thanks for the heads up. Yeah, so 40 was the breakaway on some. The thing that got me was that they were all over the map. Can you tell anything from the pics of the cylinder heads? To my untrained eye I don't see how all that carbon blow by could happen if they were sealed properly. I mean isn't that how compression happens, by having an actually sealed place where things could be, you know, compressed?? The clean cylinder is #4 which is the one that we were thinking wasn't even firing.

Image

We also found this when we opened the case. Isn't that wrong?

Image

Tim

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Re: 82 Vanagon Engine Case Align Boring

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:05 pm

MountainPrana wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:35 pm
A) my untrained eye I don't see how all that carbon blow by could happen if they were sealed properly.

B) We also found this when we opened the case. Isn't that wrong?
Tim

a) every air-cooled engine is poorly clamped when cold so it doesn't tear out the studs when it is hot.
Even so, after many many many heat/cool cycles, the heads lose clamping force as a natural part of the aging process. You can avoid this by re-torquing heads at 50,000 miles or most importantly, after a serious overheat event.

b) THIS is why your engine was very weak. Who rebuilt this?
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 93,996 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,113 miles

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Re: 82 Vanagon Engine Case Align Boring

Post by tommu » Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:13 am

Sorry, I've been spending time reading Russian disinformation on twitter when I should really have been here.

The one and only thing RIMCO did right was the align bore. They did not bother measuring my crank when selling me bearings and they did not bother to cut them for thrust. Which they needed.

Have they told you what is custom about number 1? Is it the thrust? I wouldn't expect them to be completely wrong with their measuring. The problem is their work. It's totally careless.

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Re: 82 Vanagon Engine Case Align Boring

Post by MountainPrana » Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:29 am

Amskeptic wrote:
Wed Nov 14, 2018 11:05 pm

a) ...Even so, after many many many heat/cool cycles, the heads lose clamping force as a natural part of the aging process. You can avoid this by re-torquing heads at 50,000 miles or most importantly, after a serious overheat event.

b) THIS is why your engine was very weak. Who rebuilt this?
Colin
a) I'm thinking about this aging process. Those heads have less than 4,000 miles on them, which makes me think that, according to what you said and the fact that the torquing was so caddywampus perhaps the engine was running super hot all the time?? Could that be a symptom of the mis-indexed timing gear or am I going down the wrong road altogether with the heads ??

b) Well, we had it rebuilt through Adrian at HFM during the summer of 2014.

Molly and I installed it and after some help from a local mechanic got it running for the fall and winter of 2015 with constant starting/ low power/ running problems. The day before we left for the Pacific Crest Trail it quit in the Grocery Store Parking lot and wouldn't restart. We had her towed to storage for a year while we hiked the Pacific Crest Trail/ spent the winter with family and hiked the Arizona Trail. The Summer of 2016 is when we had it in Jackson and visited with you. We drove it back to Utah and had enough problems that we put it back in Storage in late November 2016 while we visited family and hiked the Hayduke Route. Went back up to Jackson in the spring of 2017 without Odyssa and then hiked the length of New Zealand over the fall/spring/winter of 2017/18. Went back up to Jackson for a 3rd season (summer 2018) once again leaving Odyssa in storage in Saint George, and now here we are. What I'm saying with all this here, is that Molly and I have literally walked more miles than we have driven that van. ](*,)
tommu wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:13 am

Have they told you what is custom about number 1? Is it the thrust?
Not sure about the thrust on number 1, Molly will call and find out today. Thanks for the PM and the input, it's really appreciated, it's hard knowing where to turn these days, as there is only so much we can do ourselves due to machine tool limitations.

Cheers,
Tim

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Re: 82 Vanagon Engine Case Align Boring

Post by Amskeptic » Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:37 am

MountainPrana wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:29 am

a) I'm thinking about this aging process. Those heads have less than 4,000 miles on them,
the torquing was so caddywampus perhaps the engine was running super hot all the time??

Could that be a symptom of the mis-indexed timing gear or am I going down the wrong road altogether with the heads ??

b) We had it rebuilt through Adrian at HFM during the summer of 2014.
Tim, please follow these instructions:

a) read lightly the following thread:
http://www.itinerant-air-cooled.com/vie ... 46&t=12500

b) call Adrian.
Tell him your cam gear was mis-indexed and you have a photograph (this is an initial assembly error).
Tell him your cylinder heads were loose from the get-go. They were. You have the photographs.
Tell him that we have a public record of the hell you have gone through right here on the site.
Tell him that you and Molly seriously need a replacement engine at no charge and that you will be happy to ship yours back with a call tag using the same pallet your new engine arrives on.

I'll wait here.
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 93,996 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,113 miles

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Re: 82 Vanagon Engine Case Align Boring

Post by tommu » Thu Nov 15, 2018 12:45 pm

Adrian needs to know that his employees did or are doing this. Very sorry for your experience here but I agree that you should not be paying to build a new engine.

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Re: 82 Vanagon Engine Case Align Boring

Post by MountainPrana » Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:58 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 9:37 am
a) read lightly the following thread:
http://www.itinerant-air-cooled.com/vie ... 46&t=12500

b) call Adrian.
Tell him your cam gear was mis-indexed and you have a photograph (this is an initial assembly error).
Tell him your cylinder heads were loose from the get-go. They were. You have the photographs.
Tell him that we have a public record of the hell you have gone through right here on the site.
Tell him that you and Molly seriously need a replacement engine at no charge and that you will be happy to ship yours back with a call tag using the same pallet your new engine arrives on.
a) Check. I re-read through the hold off thread, I had read it back in 2016 when I first found my way to these forums looking for information about solving my HFM woes. There is some new stuff there and good to know about. Our motor definitely has the spring and ball bearing Adrian special oil pressure relief. I'll have to figure that one out.
Amskeptic wrote:
Mon Apr 23, 2018 7:54 am
As ever, I strongly recommend that you keep your pressure relief valve system original.
b) Molly has called Adrian and left messages many times over this last summer as well as emailing him on 4 separate occasions, all with no response. She in no way wants to send this case back to him with the boxes full of his parts as we are already committed to the project ourselves. We have $5100 worth of camper special kit that has been nicely balanced by a race shop in Wyoming who somehow manages to stay busy, answer the phone and field our noob questions. There is an awesome machine shop guy 2 blocks around the corner from our storage unit who manages to conjure up small world stories, go the extra mile for us and still has a smile when we show up out of the blue, he also has time to answer the phone when we call with noob questions. We are making him pies while we are here in California in a house with a kitchen. The folks at the type 4 store where we purchased the kit also are very good at answering the phone and although their tech emailing system is a bit clunky and slow we still get where we need to go with them.
So maybe there is something that Adrian can do for us but I don't think it's going to be rebuilding our engine. I agree that he should know all of the issues that we have found and the problems that it has caused.

cheers,
Tim

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Re: 82 Vanagon Engine Case Align Boring

Post by Amskeptic » Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:55 pm

MountainPrana wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 3:58 pm
A) Our ENGINE definitely has the spring and ball bearing Adrian special oil pressure relief. I'll have to figure that one out.

B) We have $5100 worth of camper special kit that has been nicely balanced by a race shop in Wyoming

C) So maybe there is something that Adrian can do for us but I don't think it's going to be rebuilding our engine. I agree that he should know all of the issues that we have found and the problems that it has caused.

cheers,
Tim

a) Allegedly his seat can be removed with an extractor. Get rid of it if you are going to be in a chilly environment. You need the beautiful thermostatic properties of a correct plunger, and the proper oil flow rate through the cooler (some more reading, yay):

http://www.itinerant-air-cooled.com/vie ... 46&t=12422


b) very glad to hear that you are already primed with a plan.

c) a serious refund.
ColinJustsayin'
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 93,996 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,113 miles

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MountainPrana
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Re: 82 Vanagon Engine Case Align Boring

Post by MountainPrana » Sat Nov 17, 2018 6:35 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
Thu Nov 15, 2018 5:55 pm

a) Allegedly his seat can be removed with an extractor. Get rid of it if you are going to be in a chilly environment. You need the beautiful thermostatic properties of a correct plunger, and the proper oil flow rate through the cooler (some more reading, yay):

http://www.itinerant-air-cooled.com/vie ... 46&t=12422
Whew, I think I'll have to read that again to really get a working understanding of the specifics. I think I've got a general overview, there is a lot happening there. I wouldn't have gotten to the idea that bearing clearances play such a critical role in oil pressure without the reading, so thank you. I will read it again to recruit some of those other constructs into my working understanding. Looks like all the usual suspects only have a pressure booster kit available, but I was able to find the stock piston http://www.busdepot.com/021115411a and hopefully the right spring http://www.busdepot.com/021115421b at Bus Depot.

Cheers,
Tim

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