Lug Bolts: SOLVED!

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DjEep
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Lug Bolts: SOLVED!

Post by DjEep » Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:32 pm

So, um, hypothetically, how much torque is really too much? :blackeye:
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Ritter
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Re: Lug Bolts

Post by Ritter » Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:49 am

DjEep wrote:So, um, hypothetically, how much torque is really too much? :blackeye:
I just torqued mine last night (long, drawn out brake story that seems to be continuing) to the specified 94 lbs. It actually didn't seem like enough. But I do know that when I got the bus back from the shop several months ago from its new tire mount, some god damned gorilla must have tightened those nuts up. Took everything I had to get them off. I'd say that was too tight.

So, in answer to your question, gorillas seem to get them too tight.
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Post by vwlover77 » Thu Apr 19, 2007 9:02 am

I wasn't a gorilla, it was a chump with an air-wrench!
Don

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DjEep
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Post by DjEep » Thu Apr 19, 2007 3:22 pm

Let me rephrase it...

How much is too little?

We got tires on the back yesterday and we wanted to be sure the torque was right. We called Lloyd. the local VW nut. because we knew he would know. He said "94," the tire guy said "too much." Then he went ahead and torqued down one side. Meanwhile I looked in the bus and found the idiot guide. Idiot guide said "72." I told the tire guy and he said "I told you, too much" Then he retorqued to 72.

Now the brakes are kinda shaky. I'll try and retorque today and see if it changes. Any chance the break drums aren't warped? :bounce:
"Live life, love life. Enjoy the pleasures and the sorrows. For it is the bleak valleys, the dark corners that make the peaks all the more magnificent. And once you realize that, you begin to see the beauty hidden within those valleys, and learn to love the climb." - Anonymous

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Post by Ritter » Thu Apr 19, 2007 3:33 pm

Bently=94
Idiots=...uhm, warm it up just long enough to roll a fatty.

Don't see how you'd warp your drums by over torquing, but what the hell do I know.
1978 Westfalia 2.0 FI

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dingo
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Post by dingo » Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:18 pm

Nice big torque wrench on sale at Harbor Freight for $14.99. Mine has lasted a year or two of abuse so i guess its a good deal. Only thing is, nearest H-Freight is i believe in Fremont, off Mowry ave...might be someothers in E Bay ??

Tire guys usually trigger happy with their impact wrenches..over-tighten to avoid lawsuits. Dingo-method: lug-wrench plus 1-2 foot cheater bar, and snug it. That way, when you are on the shoulder of the Alcan in a summer blizzard, you are never surprised. Never had a runaway wheel, so i guess it works.
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Post by DjEep » Thu Apr 19, 2007 8:01 pm

Guy at the shop actually busted out a torque wrench though...

Anyway, I just sucked it up and bought a big ol' 250ftlb click wrench at the Home Depot. Gonna need it someday anyway.

And when I went to re-torque them, one wouldn't budge. I shattered two cheap sockets and a socket adapter then bought a stromger socket and cheap-o 12v impact wrench at Kragen. Impact wrench spun up to speed, impacted, and shattered the socket it came with. Tried the better socket with the breaker and it held, but still wouldn't budge, even after standing on the bar. It's got at least 160ftlbs on it.
???

Brakes still thrumming.
"Live life, love life. Enjoy the pleasures and the sorrows. For it is the bleak valleys, the dark corners that make the peaks all the more magnificent. And once you realize that, you begin to see the beauty hidden within those valleys, and learn to love the climb." - Anonymous

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Post by Amskeptic » Sat Apr 21, 2007 5:41 am

I do hate the gorilla-reflex on lub bolts. Way too ignorant. If you look at the "flare" around the edges of the wheel holes, it gets compressed slightly. If you look closely as you tighten, you can see the wheel metal actually deform a bit. 94 ft/lbs is more than adequate. If you are stomping up and down on a cheater bar and the lugs refuse to let go until there is that horrible creaking shriek, you can be sure that the torque is easily your weight X distance from lug bolt. Sometimes that is 300 ft/lbs +. The downside is that the lugs are getting fatigued over time. It is possible to distort the brake drums or disks by over-tightening lugs, particularly when they are not even. Metal is actually pretty plastic in its behavior. You can't see it so much, but it is happening none-the-less.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Post by DjEep » Sat Apr 21, 2007 8:35 am

I think the guy did it on purpose, since we were giving him a hard time about getting it right. That and m'lady wouldn't let them drive her bus into the shop (she won't let anyone she doesn't know drive it, it's her baby), so I had to bring it around back for them to jack it up outside.

Could it also be the wheels? I got them for free on CL and just gave em a once over with a wire brush and had them put them on.
"Live life, love life. Enjoy the pleasures and the sorrows. For it is the bleak valleys, the dark corners that make the peaks all the more magnificent. And once you realize that, you begin to see the beauty hidden within those valleys, and learn to love the climb." - Anonymous

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Post by DjEep » Sat Apr 21, 2007 7:14 pm

Went back to the shop and talked to the boss. He tried to give us the "helpful, sympathetic" runaround.

He had them jack it up, (no blocks on the front wheels) and had them hit it with the gun. First gun was no use. Got a new one. Came off with a little effort.

72ftlbs shouldn't need the "big" gun to come off after 2 1/2 days. Other 4 that I personally set to 94 came off with no effort.

Boss man tried to say that drums don't warp like discs, But I don't think he is used to wide fives, torqued to 72 all around, then one to 200+.

He tried again to say that the 94ftlbs was "too much" and that he didn't want to be held responsible if it broke. I shoved a Bentley in his face and told him I'd hold RBP responsible if it did. He said "how about 90" I told him If he put it at 90 I'd personally bust out my wrench right there and do it myself, as that what they were at when I pulled in there, and they hadn't broken any more than they were already.. He said "fine, 94 it is..."

Still thrums... Now that that bolt is looser, I'm gonna take off the wheels and swap them with the old ones, to eliminate the possibility that the wheels are the culprit, then if they're not, have the guy buy us some new drums. (need to do the shoes anyway...)
"Live life, love life. Enjoy the pleasures and the sorrows. For it is the bleak valleys, the dark corners that make the peaks all the more magnificent. And once you realize that, you begin to see the beauty hidden within those valleys, and learn to love the climb." - Anonymous

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Post by vdubyah73 » Sun Apr 22, 2007 4:35 am

DJ, this thrumming you're talking about, have you checked the tread on your tire's for uneven wear? Is there any cupping or a saw tooth type of wear across your tire? Uneven wear on a tire can sound like a bad wheel bearing thrum. You can also check for a bent rim by jacking up the bus just enough to spin each tire freely, place a heavy object, like a 2 1/2 # hammer or even a brick, 1/2" from the sidewall on the floor, and spin the wheel. Even a slight 1/8'' warp will be visible. If you put what you thought were good used tires on I would suspect them of being the noisy culprits.

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Post by DjEep » Sun Apr 22, 2007 8:40 pm

Brand new Hankooks. But the wheels were used, so tomorrow I'll put the old wheels/tires back on and see if that fixes it.

The vibration is most noticeable in the pedal. It is bad enough that when my girl's driving, I can see her foot shaking, but can't really feel much from the passenger seat.
"Live life, love life. Enjoy the pleasures and the sorrows. For it is the bleak valleys, the dark corners that make the peaks all the more magnificent. And once you realize that, you begin to see the beauty hidden within those valleys, and learn to love the climb." - Anonymous

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Post by Amskeptic » Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:42 am

It is likely to be the drums. If you see any dampness in the dust accumulations around the shoes or hardware parts, you need to consider brake fluid contamination as a cause of the pulsing. Your last experiment before you throw in the towel is to sand the drum friction surfaces with the ol' 45º cross-hatch pattern using 220 grit sand paper. Use lacquer thinner, GumOut or brake cleaner to wipe them clean when you are done sanding. A light sand on the shoe material is also called for.
These wide-5 drums are becoming more scarce. You might be able to do a conservative lathe-truing (turning the drums), but make extra-sure that the front drums are correctly chucked to the lathe if you go this route.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Post by DjEep » Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:58 am

Oi... Now I have to go get me a 40mm socket, probably a bigger breaker, and some drums... fun. The guy @ Able Tire told me to bring it back on Tuesday to check the brakes. I'm torn, since I don't want them touching Geri Lou anymore, but I also don't want to have to pay for everything myself. If only I could get them to crack the axle nuts for me and then do the rest myself... :pale:


EDIT:

SOLVED! The idiots at the shop just don't know how to put a wheel on. I took off the "new" wheels and put the old ones back on. Perfect. Put the "new" wheels back on, still perfect. The difference is, I made sure to center the bolts in their holes, turning the wheel, turning a bolt, turning the wheel, etc, and then meticulously torqued them down in a croos-pattern. They just slapped the wheels on and torqued them down, as is, in a roundabout pattern.
"Live life, love life. Enjoy the pleasures and the sorrows. For it is the bleak valleys, the dark corners that make the peaks all the more magnificent. And once you realize that, you begin to see the beauty hidden within those valleys, and learn to love the climb." - Anonymous

Do you want to Survive? Or do you want to LIVE?

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Amskeptic
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Post by Amskeptic » Fri May 11, 2007 7:02 am

DjEep wrote: SOLVED! The idiots at the shop just don't know how to put a wheel on. I took off the "new" wheels and put the old ones back on. Perfect. Put the "new" wheels back on, still perfect. The difference is, I made sure to center the bolts in their holes,
Right on, right on, right ON!
Centering the wheels in the lug holes is critical with un-piloted wheels.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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