Shocks

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regis101
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Location: Livermore, Ca
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Post by regis101 » Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:58 pm

Latest post of the previous page:

Just to know if they were comp and rebound adjustable?

Now that we know that they're rebound only, Then how do the adjustments work in conjunction with the compression properties.

Using the Graphs from the 'stang, which again, are only for drama, I see that one turn would equal the compression for a 50/50 ride. To me, that would be a baseline. Then one could adjust softer or stiffer according to what the butt wants. Or more importantly, what the bus wants. Tire pressure is also to be considred, IMO.

I'm using hankook 195's with 50 lbs of air and the shocks are at 1 1/2 stiff. "Ouch", is what my butt meter is yelling.

My Koni's do not go two full turns. More like 1 3/4, maybe 7/8. So I'm going to set them at a middle setting and lower the tire pressure to 35 fr and 40 rr. This will be MY baseline.

I also see my self removing the dropped spindles to reinstall the stock ones and raise the back up one notch to regain stock ride height.

The lowered look is kewl, but no user friendly for my off road adventures.

As a side note, the hankooks like the 50 lbs on the highway. The results are easy steering and the roll factor is greatly increased.

I refuse to take any info as gospel retrieved from any internet site, or real life for that matter, on any subject until I can rip it apart to uncover what I need to gain from it.

In closing, If I do get a chance to dyno my KYB's and Koni's, I'll post the graph.

Happy trails, Regis

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spiffy
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Post by spiffy » Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:04 pm

You guys were loosing me there until the last post...I get it now, good stuff!

My hankook's like 50 (on the back tires) as well, I go a little softer up front for, like you said "your butt was demanding it"
78 Riviera "Spiffy"
67 Riviera "Bill"

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regis101
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Post by regis101 » Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:13 pm

This stuff would be so much easier around the campfire with a few tasties

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Amskeptic
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Post by Amskeptic » Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:23 pm

regis101 wrote:
Just to know if they were comp and rebound adjustable?


'kay. . .

regis101 wrote: Now that we know that they're rebound only, Then how do the adjustments work in conjunction with the compression properties.
Very roughly:
The valves are disks over orifices. You can crank down the disks and the oil has a harder time leaving the orifice. These disks are like poppet valves in a fuel pump. Facing down disks are compression limiters, facing up disks are rebound. If your screw jack only engages the up-facing disks, well, there ya go. My guess is that limiting flow in one direction also limits flow in the other to a degree. There are intermediate orifices that only get closed off with rapid movement to give a range of progressive action.

regis101 wrote: Using the Graphs from the 'stang, which again, are only for drama, I see that one turn would equal the compression for a 50/50 ride. To me, that would be a baseline. Then one could adjust softer or stiffer according to what the butt wants. Tire pressure is also to be considered, IMO.


50/50 is an arbitrary baseline. In real life, you want to have more compliance for impacts and way less for rebound.
You do not you do not really want to set your shocks for your butt. Decent seat springs/cushions are your best ride comfort engineering. Shocks are to maximize traction. Period.
regis101 wrote: I'm using hankook 195's with 50 lbs of air and the shocks are at 1 3/4 stiff. "Ouch", is what my butt meter is yelling.
No kidding. Tires need to have compliance as well. Inflation should be adjusted for proper compliance to road irregularities based strictly on the load they're carrying. You'll do fine at 32 front/44 rear psi with a normally loaded bus.
regis101 wrote: My Koni's do not go two full turns. More like 1 3/4, maybe 7/8. So I'm going to set them at a middle setting and lower the tire pressure to 35 fr and 40 rr. This will be MY baseline.
VW buses are so damn light at the front, that full soft to 1/2 is going to give you excellent traction over rough surfaces, 1/2 to 1 on the rear. Ratwell told me that the Konis only change actual settings each 180*. I had originally thought that they were infinitely adjustable. I'd like to hear Koni's response to that. . . . .
regis101 wrote: I also see my self removing the dropped spindles to reinstall the stock ones and raise the back up one notch to regain stock ride height.
The lowered look is kewl, but no user friendly for my off road adventures.
I see we're coming to the same page :compress:

regis101 wrote: As a side note, the hankooks like the 50 lbs on the highway. The results are easy steering and the roll factor is greatly increased.
see above

regis101 wrote: I refuse to take any info as gospel retrieved from any internet site, or real life for that matter, on any subject until I can rip it apart to uncover what I need to gain from it.
In closing, If I do get a chance to dyno my KYB's and Koni's, I'll post the graph.
I await your further missives. . . . .
regis101 wrote: Happy trails, Regis
My trailblazer. . . nah, trailtiddler, is currently parked in a barn with two exhaust studs yanked.
Colin :blackeye:
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 94,615 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,990 miles

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regis101
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Post by regis101 » Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:41 pm

Just put the fr and rr at 1 turn. Tire pressure is at 40 fr and rr. Way better. More gooder. Middle of the road as far as the adjustments are concerned.

Gonna put on some miles this Sunday going to a show. I know I'll be happier with the ride quality. From here I can fine tune. Gonna still bottom out but I can drive around that most of the time.

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Amskeptic
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Post by Amskeptic » Sat Oct 20, 2007 6:54 am

regis101 wrote:Just put the fr and rr at 1 turn. Tire pressure is at 40 fr and rr. Way better. More gooder. Middle of the road as far as the adjustments are concerned.
I dunno. Sometimes I feel like I am talking to a wall. Perhaps it is because there is such an information overload with so many "experts" all across the web. But I do have one back-up to help my advice stick. That is a serious appreciation for the factory engineers and the specifications they recommend. Occasionally I will make judgment calls that stray from the factory, they usually have to do with financial constraints or immediate availability constraints, and in only one instance, a superior solution (Porsche 911 elephant feet valve adjusters).

With a rear-engined car that has a serious weight bias to the rear, to put your front tires at 40 along with the rear is just plain wrong. As a matter of record, look at every rear engined car ever made, you will never never never see equal tire pressures front and rear. IT IS DANGEROUS. You must have the fronts lower to insure front breakaway before the rear not to mention that the front axle is too light to have all that pressure pressing the centers of the tire treads down, radials or otherwise.
Don't take my word. Read the stupid inflation sticker on your gas filler flap if you have one, your owners manual if you have one, ah whatever.
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 94,615 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,990 miles

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regis101
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Post by regis101 » Sat Oct 20, 2007 7:36 am

You're talking 8 lbs. Aye aye, captain

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Amskeptic
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Post by Amskeptic » Sat Oct 20, 2007 9:47 am

regis101 wrote:You're talking 8 lbs. Aye aye, captain
At ease.
Guess I'll go take that walk now. . . . :bounce:
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 94,615 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,990 miles

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hambone
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Post by hambone » Sat Oct 20, 2007 1:38 pm

It does make a difference, seriously. I've tried both ways and with less pressure in the front it just seems more balanced and "correct". Those specs are surely well researched and VW wouldn't have wasted their time otherwise. Plus the split bus was essentially weight-balanced the same and was a platform of study since the 50s.
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Elwood
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Post by Elwood » Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:58 pm

OK ~ Ignorant woman asking here, from what I have gleened from alot of posts on shocks. My ,69 will not except konis on the rear or is it front???
How do I test them myself, the old ones, to see if I need replacement? I hear a sqeek after a long trip and don,t know where it is coming from. And is it bad or ok to run diff size tires, front and rear???
Sorry for hijack, just need advice. b/e
'69 weekender ~ Elwood

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Amskeptic
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Post by Amskeptic » Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:55 pm

Elwood wrote:OK ~ Ignorant woman asking here, from what I have gleened from alot of posts on shocks. My '69 will not accept konis on the rear or is it front???
How do I test them myself, the old ones, to see if I need replacement? I hear a sqeak after a long trip and don't know where it is coming from. And is it bad or ok to run different size tires, front and rear???
Sorry for hijack, just need advice. b/e
Well Miss Thread Hijacker,

Shock Test. Stand on bumper near spport and get the car to rock up and down two or three times then release. It should settle within one bounce. If it gives you a little extra. . . . shocks may be called for.

Squeaks are tough to localize. Shock bushings can squeak, dry ball joints, or even outer tie rod sockets so can the rubber bushings in the rear torsion bars. If the squeak is easy to locate front vs rear, then you can rule out rear torsion bar bushings. Taking off the shocks and doing a little test drive can rule out or rule in shock bushings.

Different size tires are not recommended, but what is the difference? Larger always on rear. . . .
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 94,615 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,990 miles

bus71
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Post by bus71 » Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:27 am

Greetings! I will add my 2 cents worth. For many years I've run KYb shocks. Gasadjust rears, Gr2 front. I have a HD swaybar in front 7/8s I recall. Tires are Michelin 6ply front and 8 ply Yokohama rear, used. Tires are always 6 or 8 ply but brands vary. My 71 bus does lots of freeway and bad "roads". It carries tools, materials, 4 to 10 people, camping gear and bikes on the rack. VW recommended hd shocks for this type of driving. I run stock tire pressures. I think VW had it pretty well figured out. It drives and handles fine. I drive the way Colin suggests and did so before I discovered the internet. Your VW bus is never going to drive like a Porchse. Learn to love it.

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regis101
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Post by regis101 » Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:11 pm

The Hankook 195's don't seem to like a lower tire pressure. At 30-32 they are like jello. All wiggly thru the sidewall. Can be seen when shaking the bus side to side and felt when driving. Around town the lower pressure are great, but most of my driving is on the freeways. Hello...California.

I now have the fronts at 40 and the rear at 48. The KONI's are set at just under one turn fr and rr. This works for me, the bus and the road conditions in my area. Firm and confident. I purposely got behind a semi-truck and hung at various distaces behind him to get some turbulence. It was fine.Actually better than when the shocks were almost full stiff and higher tire pressure.

Maybe the Hankooks with a 65 lb max likes the 40 range. Dunno. I'll keep a watch on tread wear to see if they're riding the centers or the edges.

I'm cool with the factory settings. I prefer my set-up.

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spiffy
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Post by spiffy » Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:28 am

I agree wholeheartedly on the Hankook tire pressures, they are sensitve buggers at lower pressure.

Elwood wrote:OK ~ Ignorant woman asking here, from what I have gleened from alot of posts on shocks. My ,69 will not except konis on the rear or is it front???
How do I test them myself, the old ones, to see if I need replacement? I hear a sqeek after a long trip and don,t know where it is coming from. And is it bad or ok to run diff size tires, front and rear???
Sorry for hijack, just need advice. b/e
When I pulled my old ones off I was able to compress them all the way....by hand and they stayed that way :cyclopsani: I started noticing that the bus would really dip down when passengers (or myself) got in the bus. With the new shocks the bus is nice and stable.
78 Riviera "Spiffy"
67 Riviera "Bill"

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regis101
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Post by regis101 » Sun Oct 28, 2007 4:19 pm

Interesting note about the adjustment. We just spent the weekend at the local CG. A place that I've been to numerous times this summer. Same raod. Same load.

When I had the KONI's at almost full hard, meaning stiff on the rebound, I bottomed out more than recent with the shocks set at a tad less than one turn. This setting (should) give it a 50/50 working order.

My thoughts are that the compression is still the same but with the rebound slow to return to normal it stays compressed for a longer period of time thus increasing the chances of riding the bottom of the stroke.

Be it known that these views as it deals with my bus/campr are solely based on seat-of-the-pants. But when I carry the same load, drive the same mph and experience different ride qualities then the assumptions may be correct.

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Ritter
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Post by Ritter » Sun Mar 09, 2008 4:00 pm

Oh glorious spring day! Oh glorious non busted knuckles! Oh glorious new shocks! Oh GLORIOUS HANDLING!! (holy ninja bus, Batman)

Gr-2 on the front
Gas-adjusts on the rear

Old shocks came off without a fight (PB Blaster the two days ahead) and the new ones went on without issues. I compressed the first grimy blue Monroe shock I pulled off the front and gave it a test. PFTHTTTTTTTttttttt. No rebound, no resistance, nada. Same on the other front Monroe and same on the two rear Bouge (sp?) shocks that appear to be original items (green paint, ya know).

Test drive was almost divine--I hit the railroad tracks that used to make me think my front end was about to fall off. No CLUNK to be heard. I hit the freeway at 65 and hardly got pulled about by passing traffic at all. I was actually wishing for some wind to give 'er a go. (you know, the old hard to starboard, ack, hard to port! routine)

One of the best hour projects I've done as far as driveability results. I don't know what else I could expect from Konis, but for around $150, I'm very satisfied (and $250 ahead for the next projects).

For what it's worth in others' decision making processes.
1978 Westfalia 2.0 FI

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