Shocks

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spiffy
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Post by spiffy » Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:05 am

Latest post of the previous page:

FWIW I purchased (2) KYB Gr-2's and (2) gas adjusts(rear) from CIP1 for $150 and free shipping, as soon as I get them I will put them on and I should have a good report as I have some monroes on there now so those of you not wanting to go Koni should get a good idea of what to expect.
78 Riviera "Spiffy"
67 Riviera "Bill"

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spiffy
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Post by spiffy » Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:35 pm

Well, the old shocks were COMPLETELY shot. (explains alot of handling issues :geek: )

The new KYB's ride great, absolutely smooth and zero complaints about the product. I seriously can't imagine why you would want to spend twice as much on shocks.

The setup:

Gr-2's on the front
Gas-adjusts on the rear
78 Riviera "Spiffy"
67 Riviera "Bill"

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Westy78
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Post by Westy78 » Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:57 pm

spiffy wrote: I seriously can't imagine why you would want to spend twice as much on shocks.
Remember how smooth my bus rides with the same or better handling than KYB's? That's why. :yawinkle: I came from the same set up as you now have and I'll take the Koni's any day. It's not that the KYB's are junk I just like a more plush ride.
Chorizo, it's what's for breakfast.

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Gypsie
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Post by Gypsie » Sat Oct 13, 2007 9:49 am

I'd love to see how your fork lift is set up... :geek:
So it all started when I wanted to get better gas mileage....

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spiffy
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Post by spiffy » Sat Oct 13, 2007 6:23 pm

Westy78 wrote:
spiffy wrote: I seriously can't imagine why you would want to spend twice as much on shocks.
Remember how smooth my bus rides with the same or better handling than KYB's? That's why. :yawinkle: I came from the same set up as you now have and I'll take the Koni's any day. It's not that the KYB's are junk I just like a more plush ride.
I think I need to go for another ride in yer bus, ya now, for scientifical data gatherin' :geek:

Hey, this might be the second time in my life I am wrong, HA (I wish) :blackeye:
78 Riviera "Spiffy"
67 Riviera "Bill"

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Amskeptic
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Post by Amskeptic » Sat Oct 13, 2007 7:26 pm

spiffy wrote:
Westy78 wrote:
spiffy wrote: I seriously can't imagine why you would want to spend twice as much on shocks.
Remember how smooth my bus rides with the same or better handling than KYB's? That's why. :yawinkle: I came from the same set up as you now have and I'll take the Koni's any day. It's not that the KYB's are junk I just like a more plush ride.
I think I need to go for another ride in yer bus, ya now, for scientifical data gatherin' :geek:

Hey, this might be the second time in my life I am wrong, HA (I wish) :blackeye:
Stand proud, spiffy. A "plush ride" is not what shocks are for.
A "plush ride" is just evidence that the shocks are not involved.
After you accept a comparative ride in a "plush bus", please invite them to a little launch over a railroad crossing followed by a road-bisecting drainage channel dip. People will be begging for a little KYB stability.

There is NO absolute superior shock when it comes to firmness. It all depends on your usage. As far as build engineering, gas-filled shocks have a certain advantage as far as preventing foaming of the oil on choppy surfaces.
softer = slower/lighter/smoother
harder = faster/heavier/rougher
You want softer shocks when driving slowly or with an empty bus on smooth roads.
You want harder shocks if going quickly or with a heavily laden bus on rough roads.

KYBs are the superior shock on Southern California freeways with the short expansion joints, the gas charge prevents foaming. Mine gave a serious 13 years with NO problems, and the firm ride softened up over the first three years, but they were always right there when you needed them.
ColinKoni'sRFineButNotTheSecondComing
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 93,996 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,113 miles

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Westy78
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Post by Westy78 » Sun Oct 14, 2007 1:18 am

All I know is that for the roads I drive my bus on the Koni's far outdid the KYB set up. The first time I hit a corner on a badly wash boarded road and the bus didn't kick sideways due to the stiffer KYB's but instead tracked nicely around the bend I was sold. Perhaps the Koni's aren't the be all end all for bus suspension but they work for me.
Chorizo, it's what's for breakfast.

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hambone
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Post by hambone » Sun Oct 14, 2007 8:10 am

Since both mfrs. make a quality product that works well for our type2s then I think it comes down to personal preference.
My bus came with KYBs and I have no reason to change em'.
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regis101
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Post by regis101 » Sun Oct 14, 2007 9:55 am

regis101 wrote:Cool. Good words.
My thoughts about the bus KONI's come from a shock dyno graph I 'member seeing about KONI vs Bilstein for the BMW e30 crowd. The Koni adjustables were rebound dampened only in that application.
.
My state of confusion is showing again. The following link was found on an e30 site about shock comparisson for the mustang.
Good info. This does not mean that All Koni's are rebound only adjustable .

Hopefully, the ones for our bus are indeed comp and rebound adjustable. No big, if not. Inquiring minds want to know.

www.koni-na.com/presentations/mustang

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Amskeptic
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Post by Amskeptic » Sun Oct 14, 2007 12:54 pm

regis101 wrote:
regis101 wrote:Cool. Good words.
My thoughts about the bus KONI's come from a shock dyno graph I 'member seeing about KONI vs Bilstein for the BMW e30 crowd. The Koni adjustables were rebound dampened only in that application.
.
My state of confusion is showing again. www.koni-na.com/presentations/mustang
Indeed it is when you start quoting your own posts.

What exactly are you asking?

What exactly is it that you are looking for?

Can you properly interpret a graph to real world driving experience?

Do you know what compression stiffness feels like vs. rebound stiffness?

Which do you prefer and why? (quiz question)

Appropos of an earlier post composed in this thread by yours truly,
What does spring method have to do with shock valving stratgies? quiz)

The graphs on your link show different resistances to loading forces based on shock valving/adjustment, you will note that the compression curves all looked very close to each other, but nonetheless, you can see different colors in the compression curves based on adjustments offered by the adjustable shocks.

If your vehicle is loaded in the compression range, or if your shock performance snapshot is at an instant in the compression range, does that mean your resistance is as low as graphed as a result? The corollary, if your vehicle is in the rebound range of suspension travel, does that mean there is all of this enormous resistance to movement throughout the rebound range? (quiz)

What the hell does a Mustang or a BMW 3 Series have to do with a VW bus that might go 65 mph and might swerve to miss a dog but hardly ace the apex at Lime Rock?
Colin
(all shock absorbers are designed to do is to damp out secondary motions, you DO NOT WANT them to resist primary motions, that just imparts a harsh impact to the vehicle with NO advantage to vehicle control SOOOO. . . . is it compression or rebound that has to absorb impact loads? quiz)
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 93,996 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,113 miles

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regis101
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Post by regis101 » Sun Oct 14, 2007 2:24 pm

I'm only trying to find the exact truth as to whether or not the KONI for the bus is indeed both rebound and compression adjustable. The graph link posted for the stang' shows a miniscule amount of compression adjustability , if any as compared to the rebound. Again this is for the mustang, I know.

And I mentioned earlier, I want to know if KONI's cronies special limited run of a shock from 30 yrs ago is still as originally spec'd.

I did fire off an email to KONI. I'll await their reply.

My quizical posting nature is due to total respect for you and your knowledge while still seeking absolute truth.

I deeply apologize for any misunderstanding for tone of voice lost from having to type instead of talking.

I will add no more to this thread. I ruined it enough.

Humbly, Regis

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Amskeptic
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Post by Amskeptic » Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:31 pm

regis101 wrote:I'm only trying to find the exact truth as to whether or not the KONI for the bus is indeed both rebound and compression adjustable. The graph link posted for the stang' shows a miniscule amount of compression adjustability , if any as compared to the rebound.

I did fire off an email to KONI. I'll await their reply.

I deeply apologize for any misunderstanding for tone of voice lost from having to type instead of talking.

I will add no more to this thread. I ruined it enough.
We are all of us here engaged in the restless pursuit of the truth, so you must continue to participate in this thread, particularly if/when Koni replies to you. This is fun stuff, and we are all enjoying the gift of the internet to inform us like people have never been informed before. Ya think anyone could have rustled up a shock performance graph in six colors 15 years ago? I DON'T THINK SO. What I am tearing into here, is a better understanding of what you are visualizing/considering/questioning in regards to shock absorber purpose/operation/subjective impressions.
I am writing a book! I need to know how people think, and I need to know if I can communicate these sometimes devilishly complex concepts with any hope of clarity. If you catch any irritation in my pixels, it was only because I was replying before I just got my 2006 taxes filed 20 minutes ago, I have receipts fluttering around here like confetti and I am trying to carry on in the forum?
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 93,996 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,113 miles

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spiffy
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Post by spiffy » Sun Oct 14, 2007 7:08 pm

Dis is goot, good to really through in experience with both of these products cause it may lead someone to consider what works best for them and their bus.

I think my improvement was as stark as it could get though....the old oil filled shocks that I took off I could compress by hand and they would not rebound or even put up a fight...they were D-O-N-E.

And I still want a ride in yer bus dammit :geek:
78 Riviera "Spiffy"
67 Riviera "Bill"

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regis101
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Post by regis101 » Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:16 pm

KONI replied to my email that they are rebound adjustable only. No graph.

I sent another email to a local performance shop to see if I can get some shocks dyno'd. We'll see

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Amskeptic
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Post by Amskeptic » Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:24 pm

regis101 wrote:KONI replied to my email that they are rebound adjustable only. No graph.

I sent another email to a local performance shop to see if I can get some shocks dyno'd. We'll see
I am still curious, is the information you seek for your bus shock absorber needs? Based on the graphs we did see from your link, the compression resistance is over 100% of the rebound resistance at "soft" and it is 60% of the rebound resistance at firm, just to let our viewing audience know that shocks are working hard in both directions, regardless.
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 93,996 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,113 miles

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regis101
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Post by regis101 » Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:58 pm

Just to know if they were comp and rebound adjustable?

Now that we know that they're rebound only, Then how do the adjustments work in conjunction with the compression properties.

Using the Graphs from the 'stang, which again, are only for drama, I see that one turn would equal the compression for a 50/50 ride. To me, that would be a baseline. Then one could adjust softer or stiffer according to what the butt wants. Or more importantly, what the bus wants. Tire pressure is also to be considred, IMO.

I'm using hankook 195's with 50 lbs of air and the shocks are at 1 1/2 stiff. "Ouch", is what my butt meter is yelling.

My Koni's do not go two full turns. More like 1 3/4, maybe 7/8. So I'm going to set them at a middle setting and lower the tire pressure to 35 fr and 40 rr. This will be MY baseline.

I also see my self removing the dropped spindles to reinstall the stock ones and raise the back up one notch to regain stock ride height.

The lowered look is kewl, but no user friendly for my off road adventures.

As a side note, the hankooks like the 50 lbs on the highway. The results are easy steering and the roll factor is greatly increased.

I refuse to take any info as gospel retrieved from any internet site, or real life for that matter, on any subject until I can rip it apart to uncover what I need to gain from it.

In closing, If I do get a chance to dyno my KYB's and Koni's, I'll post the graph.

Happy trails, Regis

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