Early Bay Box Dis/ReAssembly

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Amskeptic
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Re: Early Bay Box Dis/ReAssembly

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Nov 07, 2014 8:15 pm

Latest post of the previous page:

wcfvw69 wrote: Maybe I'm just being over cautious?
I don't have any means to measure inch pounds nor do I have the torque gauge illustrated in the Bentley manual.

When you assembled your peg in this thread, how much force did it take to turn the peg after your final adjustment with it all freshly greased up?
As per the write-up:
Grease the pitman arm shaft too, and have another blob on the peg-which-rotates-with-barely-any-drag-but-some.

What final adjustment are you referring to?

I do have too many moments of instinctual confidence that I must impart through words, but the needle bearings are dangerous little buggers, you can truly destroy them and the pitman/peg races if you over-tighten . . . they are on tapers! The unit pressure skyrockets between 3 inch/lbs and let's say 6 inch/lbs.
The good news is inch/lb torque values are pretty easy to hit.
Just tighten the nut until you feel all play disappear, keep rotating the peg while you turn the nut, and as soon as you feel drag, you are done. Barely any drag . . . but some. It'll make instinctual sense . . some.
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 94,615 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,990 miles

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wcfvw69
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Re: Early Bay Box Dis/ReAssembly

Post by wcfvw69 » Fri Nov 07, 2014 8:31 pm

The final adjustment or torque I'm referring to is in the Bentley. It states to "install the spring washer, flat washer, star washer and nut on the peg. Then torque the nut to 25 cmkg (22 in. lb.)." I understand what you're saying in regards to the final adjustment. You articulated it very well.

I'm trying to figure out how to upload some pics so you can see these parts.
1970 Westfalia bus. Stock 1776 dual port type 1 engine. Restored German Solex 34-3. Restored 205Q distributor, restored to factory appearance engine.

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Re: Early Bay Box Dis/ReAssembly

Post by wcfvw69 » Fri Nov 07, 2014 9:02 pm

Image

I figured it out! Here's the shaft.

Image

Here's where it currently sits. Pls let me know if there's any other pics you might need to see. I'm curious as to what your experience eyes discover.

Thanks again Colin
1970 Westfalia bus. Stock 1776 dual port type 1 engine. Restored German Solex 34-3. Restored 205Q distributor, restored to factory appearance engine.

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Re: Early Bay Box Dis/ReAssembly

Post by wcfvw69 » Sat Nov 08, 2014 11:03 am

Welp, I reassembled the peg assembly. I fretted over the adjustment probably too much. I used your words of just snugging the nut until it slightly started to bind then bent a tab over. I had no slop though the nut would wiggle a bit and I could move the washers slightly under the nut. I'd say it was adjusted a tiny bit more than 1 ft pound. The peg felt firm in place and I couldn't move it up or down nor side to side it, what-so-ever. It appeared to spin easier than before.

I then cleaned and reassembled the gear box with copious amounts of the recommended grease. I installed the new seals and I then adjusted the pitman arm until I got a "slight" bind at the center point and called it good. This was followed by further cleaning of said gear and applied some black spray paint.

I just need to get some of the hypoid oil to refill the box and then reinstall it after cleaning the years of crude and crap off the frame where it's being drooling.

Thanks again for your help and the very nice write up.
1970 Westfalia bus. Stock 1776 dual port type 1 engine. Restored German Solex 34-3. Restored 205Q distributor, restored to factory appearance engine.

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Re: Early Bay Box Dis/ReAssembly

Post by Amskeptic » Sat Nov 08, 2014 11:08 pm

wcfvw69 wrote:Welp, I just need to reinstall it.
Let us know how it drives, particularly its ability to return to center.
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 94,615 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,990 miles

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Re: Early Bay Box Dis/ReAssembly

Post by wcfvw69 » Sun Nov 09, 2014 9:22 am

Amskeptic wrote:
wcfvw69 wrote:Welp, I just need to reinstall it.
Let us know how it drives, particularly its ability to return to center.

Colin
Will do. Is there a concern that I assembled it where it might have an issue returning to center?

Last question, I promise. Why is it that I read that the bus's steering gear is suppose to have a "catch" in the center position? When I adjusted steering gear worm drives on most cars back in the 80's while doing alignments for a living, we would NOT want them to bind at the center position. This is true for beetles as well. I would think the "catching or binding" would cause wear. Clearly, the Germans designed these boxes that way. I 'm just curious as to why?
1970 Westfalia bus. Stock 1776 dual port type 1 engine. Restored German Solex 34-3. Restored 205Q distributor, restored to factory appearance engine.

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Re: Early Bay Box Dis/ReAssembly

Post by asiab3 » Sun Nov 09, 2014 12:10 pm

wcfvw69 wrote:Is there a concern that I assembled it where it might have an issue returning to center?
If the adjustment is too tight, you will destroy the worm gear in short order. The car will let you know by being hesitant to return to center on corner exits. Extremely over-tightened adjustments will be detectable in the steering wheel as you pass through center from side to side.
Why is it that I read that the bus's steering gear is suppose to have a "catch" in the center position? When I adjusted steering gear worm drives on most cars back in the 80's while doing alignments for a living, we would NOT want them to bind at the center position. This is true for beetles as well. I would think the "catching or binding" would cause wear. Clearly, the Germans designed these boxes that way. I 'm just curious as to why?
I think it stems from the wear that will eventually come from the center no matter what. We do most of our driving with the box centered, and very little driving at full or near-full lock to either side.

So let's imagine the worm was 100% consistent. If there is a slight wear in the center and it starts to clunk, a well-intentioned mechanic would tighten the adjustment to appease the clueless owner. Now the owner has a quiet box as he or she is setting up for a U-turn on a busy street. Wheels go full left lock, but now the roller binds in the worm because it's adjusted too tight! Smash goes the Ford Galaxie into the beautiful Volkswagen, and the helpless owner can't figure out why the steering just got stuck all the way left!

So if your box clunks a little when the wheels are turned out a lot, who would notice or care much? With the design how it is, we can have clunk-less steering for most if not all of our driving, and adjustment (even from amateur hour shops) won't endanger any lives.

I think,
Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
100k miles with me.
279k miles on Earth.

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Re: Early Bay Box Dis/ReAssembly

Post by wcfvw69 » Sun Nov 09, 2014 1:04 pm

Hey Robbie,

I'm certain the peg bearing adjustment isn't too tight. It spins easier then it did before I disassembled it. If anything, it might be a "touch" not tight enough. My anal nature wanted to go out and buy an inch pound torque wrench but I used Colin's description. The worm adjustment is touchy on these gears. I mean, just a bit of a turn once the adjustment screw makes contact with the pitman arm and you feel the "catch" at the center point. A slight, minor turn of the screw the opposite direction and the you lose the "catch".

I'm anxious to see how it feels once I get my transmission back from the overhaul it needed.
1970 Westfalia bus. Stock 1776 dual port type 1 engine. Restored German Solex 34-3. Restored 205Q distributor, restored to factory appearance engine.

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Re: Early Bay Box Dis/ReAssembly

Post by Amskeptic » Sun Nov 09, 2014 10:42 pm

wcfvw69 wrote:Hey Robbie,

I'm certain the peg bearing adjustment isn't too tight. It spins easier then it did before I disassembled it. If anything, it might be a "touch" not tight enough. My anal nature wanted to go out and buy an inch pound torque wrench but I used Colin's description. The worm adjustment is touchy on these gears. I mean, just a bit of a turn once the adjustment screw makes contact with the pitman arm and you feel the "catch" at the center point. A slight, minor turn of the screw the opposite direction and the you lose the "catch".

I'm anxious to see how it feels once I get my transmission back from the overhaul it needed.
Let's dispense with the word "catch."

A nice proper steering box will have an almost imperceptible "preload" for approximately 22* (11* to each side of center).

An over-adjusted box will develop a dent in the worm gear over time. This loses the preload at center, and you might end up with a slight (or nasty) jamming up on either side of that dent.

If this is the case, adjust the steering box off immediate center so you are adjusting at the jamming/catch point to specified factory preload (*or magnificently intuitive facsimile of factory preload).

Take a little loose over killing the poor thing.
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 94,615 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,990 miles

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Re: Early Bay Box Dis/ReAssembly

Post by wcfvw69 » Fri Nov 28, 2014 6:06 pm

As a follow up, I finally got my transmission back from the rebuild. After installing it and the engine, I had some horror when I couldn't get it into any gear. Anyway, I ended noticing the rubber POS coupler I bought from WW had ton's of slop in it and was bent a bit. I managed to get it bent back up enough to find four gears though they are tight.

SO, first trip on the steering gear I tore apart and resealed and adjusted the peg. I have to say I was very impressed with how smooth it was and it returned to center nicely. All four tie rods are new and tight as well. The only thing odd is now the steering wheel is off center? I had the wheels straight ahead when I un-hooked the drag link. When I hooked the gear up to the coupler, before putting the pitman arm on I centered the gear. I then put the drag link on where it was before and the drag link fit right in.. ODD... I'm too tired to think about this right now but will revisit it later when my brain is fresh.

Colin, thanks for such a nice, thorough write up and for you replies to my questions.
1970 Westfalia bus. Stock 1776 dual port type 1 engine. Restored German Solex 34-3. Restored 205Q distributor, restored to factory appearance engine.

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Re: Early Bay Box Dis/ReAssembly

Post by asiab3 » Sat Nov 29, 2014 6:12 pm

The Bentley order is correct to prevent a few things, notably steering box wear and equal lock points. I think it's pretty important to have everything centered correctly. Did you get two adjustable tie-rods, or one fixed and one adjustable? Having one fixed tie-rod makes the procedure pretty straightforward, but having two adjustable ones can confuse some people.

If the steering wheel is off after EVERYTHING else is perfectly centered, then you may remove it (with a proper, good puller, please) and re-center it, paying attention to the signal canceling tabs. The only puller I will use are the kind that actually pull the wheel by the metal canceling ring and metal wheel frame. I don't even try with pullers that grab it by the plastic shell.

Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
100k miles with me.
279k miles on Earth.

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Re: Early Bay Box Dis/ReAssembly

Post by wcfvw69 » Mon Dec 01, 2014 2:03 pm

SO, a good nights sleep and a fresh brain and I was suspicious that the passenger side tie rod assembly that I changed the tie rods in was off a bit even after counting the threads and measuring it as I replaced the tie rods. The drivers side tie rod assy is fixed and non-adjustable. I scribed some lines on each front tie with white spray paint. Then used a toe bar and checked the toe. DOH... It was 3/8" toed out. I adjusted the r/s tie rod assembly to get a toe in of 1/16" and what do ya know? The steering wheel is centered again.. Lengthening the R/F tie rod assembly turns the RF wheel in towards the steering wheel that was down to the left centering it. It reminded me of when I use to do alignments for a living.

I took it for a drive with the toe now set. The steering is noticeably smoother and easier. I really think the peg was not rotating on the worm before I re-adjusted it. There's no side to side play in the steering now and driving down the freeway is so nice. It also returns to center very nicely.
1970 Westfalia bus. Stock 1776 dual port type 1 engine. Restored German Solex 34-3. Restored 205Q distributor, restored to factory appearance engine.

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Re: Early Bay Box Dis/ReAssembly

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:02 am

wcfvw69 wrote:SO, a good nights sleep and a fresh brain and I was suspicious that the passenger side tie rod assembly that I changed the tie rods in was off a bit even after counting the threads and measuring it as I replaced the tie rods. The drivers side tie rod assy is fixed and non-adjustable. I scribed some lines on each front tie with white spray paint. Then used a toe bar and checked the toe. DOH... It was 3/8" toed out. I adjusted the r/s tie rod assembly to get a toe in of 1/16" and what do ya know? The steering wheel is centered again.. Lengthening the R/F tie rod assembly turns the RF wheel in towards the steering wheel that was down to the left centering it. It reminded me of when I use to do alignments for a living.

I took it for a drive with the toe now set. The steering is noticeably smoother and easier. I really think the peg was not rotating on the worm before I re-adjusted it. There's no side to side play in the steering now and driving down the freeway is so nice. It also returns to center very nicely.
Another Typical Air-Cooled Volkswagen Story comprising hope energy challenge extended exertion bafflement exhaustion doubt perseverance dogged determination eventual reassembly and a glowing validictory . . .
"seems to steer better."
Colin
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 94,615 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,990 miles

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Re: Early Bay Box Dis/ReAssembly

Post by fredg » Sun Aug 09, 2015 10:06 am

This writeup has been extremely helpful. The pitman arm put up a stubborn fight but I ruled the day. I came prepared with a torch, puller, PB Blaster a 3 lb. hammer and some weed. It took about an hour.
The steering box guts looked great except the pin which had frozen at some point and had some bad pitting and a flat spot. I put it in our wood lathe and trued and polished it with a diamond abrasive block. The grooves in the worm looked OK.

On page 31 in Bentleys it says there are 16 tapered bearings per race. Mine had 15 per race. My bus is very clean underneath and it does not seem like the box had ever been disturbed. On the inside of the box cover casting was the number 73 aside a second larger number. My bus is a 71. Is my box a replacement from 1973 perhaps? With an added roller (16 rollers) the pin seemed to sit too high in the race. 15 per side is what I had and it looked and felt correct

I tightened the 10mm bolts with my fingers and a small socket and got the worm so it turned perfectly and the pin turns perfectly too.

The re-assembled box turns firmly and smoothly with a twist of thumb and index finger and I can feel where the box 'relaxes' at center as I turn by hand. There is no play to be found except a little side play between the arm and the box. I put in new seals and am about to bolt up.
I have some Castrol Synthetic 75/90 is this appropriate lube?

Thanks,
Fred

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Re: Early Bay Box Dis/ReAssembly

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Aug 14, 2015 1:30 pm

fredg wrote: On page 31 in Bentleys it says there are 16 tapered bearings per race.
Mine had 15 per race. With an added roller (16 rollers) the pin seemed to sit too high in the race.
15 per side is what I had and it looked and felt correct
The Bentley Manual is not God. Your personal reality trumps.
fredg wrote: I can feel where the box 'relaxes' at center as I turn by hand. There is no play to be found except a little side play between the arm and the box.

Castrol Synthetic 75/90?
"Relaxes" as in it tightens up on either side of the "relax point"??
Welcome to the aforementioned "dent" in the worm gear.
You must adjust the box only outside of the relax dent spot.

Your lubricant is fine.
Colin
(my steering box is not)
BobD - 1978 Bus . . . . . . . . . . .111,130 miles
Chloe - 1970 bus . . . . . . . . . . . 206,787 miles
Naranja - 1977 Westfalia . . . . . 94,615 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . 55,510 miles
Alexus - 1991 Lexus LS400 . . . 72,990 miles

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Re: Early Bay Box Dis/ReAssembly

Post by fredg » Sun Aug 16, 2015 6:45 am

You must adjust the box only outside of the relax dent spot.

That was the piece of info I was missing. If I had read it before, I didn't understand it.

Here are some pics of the box, and other parts I re-built ready for bolt up.

Re-bushing the shift rod was humbling. I'll post pictures in a new post.

FG
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