85 Vanagon Digijet

[Amskeptic]

Satchmo,

No, and I'm with you. Tomorrow morning I get to clean and check grounds all over the place. Other wiring too. I've identified at least 3 things that ought to be connected.

But the bottom line is that the damn thing should fire. It's not, and the only thing that I can see is a problem is either the wire to the FCU (which if it's broken, is broken after the first couple of inches out of the FPR) or the FCU itself.

If everything works with the FCU out of the loop then:

1. FCU wiring is bad
2. FCU is bad

I await the word of the master.

L.

Read closely:

If you have the ignition on, a voltage tester with the black wire on the tester touching a nice piece of bare metal;

WILL have 12 volts at the coil,
WILL have 12 volts at the 85 on the FPR
.......now get this . . . . .
WILL have 12 volts at 86 on the FPR, IF THE GROUND (if not the wire, inside the FCU) IS BAD.
(this is because the voltage tester is only picking up differential voltage potential)

So, please do a proper Itinerant Air-Cooled GitErDone test.
Shut off ignition.
Pull off 86 wire from FPR.
Stick on your own jumoer wire comprising a spade terminal for the 86, and any decent ground point with the other end of the wire, use your roach clip to hold it on.
Turn on ignition.
Tell me if the pump runs.
Colin

[Lanval]

So, please do a proper Itinerant Air-Cooled GitErDone test.
Shut off ignition.
Pull off 86 wire from FPR.
Stick on your own jumoer wire comprising a spade terminal for the 86, and any decent ground point with the other end of the wire, use your roach clip to hold it on.
Turn on ignition.
Tell me if the pump runs.

Colin

Yes, jumper the 86 to ground (I used the A/C compressor bracket) and the pump runs.

Do I need to do the crank test? In the digijet manual it says:

"Remove the FPR and check terminal 86 for ground from terminal 20 of E.C.U. while cranking."

I skipped this step since it needs someone else, and I didn't have anyone available... but now I'm wondering if this should be the next step. The wire itself has continuity, or did when I checked it a couple of days ago.

I have to ask, though ~ how do I "check for ground" while cranking with my multimeter?


L.

L.

[Amskeptic]

Yes, jumper the 86 to ground (I used the A/C compressor bracket) and the pump runs.

Do I need to do the crank test?
I skipped this step since it needs someone else,
how do I "check for ground" while cranking with my multimeter?

Remove FCU plug. Find terminal #20. Leave 86 plugged in at the relay. Bridge #20 terminal with a little piece of wire and have it ready to ground out when you subsequently turn on the ignition. Subsequently turn on the ignition. Walk back to FCU plug with the dangling #20 ground wire ready to ground and ground it. If pump turns on, your FCU is basically toast except for this last check. Check all ground paths from FCU. Make sure no foolin that they all are good. If good, new FCU.
Colin

[Lanval]

Removed the connector to the ECU and grounded the #20 from the ECU connector. The pump runs.

Rather than try to track down the original wiring, I'm going to get another ECU from Elsinore (or not, if they don't have one), get the replacement intake runners and plenum, and then:

remove runners/plenum
install replacement harness
replace runners/plenum
replace ECU (if available)
run van

If I can't get a replacement ECU from elsinore, I'll make very sure all wiring is correctly connected on the new harness and then run the first check again. If it still don't work, that ECU is toast.

L.

[Amskeptic]

Removed the connector to the ECU and grounded the #20 from the ECU connector. The pump runs.

Rather than try to track down the original wiring, I'm going to get another ECU from Elsinore (or not, if they don't have one), get the replacement intake runners and plenum, and then:

remove runners/plenum
install replacement harness
replace runners/plenum
replace ECU (if available)
run van

If I can't get a replacement ECU from elsinore, I'll make very sure all wiring is correctly connected on the new harness and then run the first check again. If it still don't work, that ECU is toast.

L.

After tearing apart my laptop, I would disassemble the ECU and inspect the printed circuit board for a tell-tale corona surrounding a solder joint in the circuit path identifiable from #20 terminal. But man, I would also double check the ground paths required by the ECU in order for the #20 to get grounded. This is fun, isn't it?
Colin, ISN'T IT??

[Lanval]

I HEARD you; the first time. Jeebus, you're like a broken record...

Seriously, now:

Went to Elsinore and got:

New runners
Plenum
Fuel Pressure Regulator
1.9 throttle body (Yes, I checked ~ it's the right one, and matches the one I have...)

No joy on the ECU. That's OK, though. On Thursday, I'm going to replace the plenum, runners, TB, etc. That-a-way I can fix that wire that runs under the passenger side runners (white, don't remember what it's for, but you said it was important). I will then replace the current rats nest (heh) of wiring with a complete 1.9 harness. While doing so I will:

Clean/sand all the ground points on the engine/bay walls
Check replacement harness for continuity
Clean/sand all ground connections on the harness

This should give is a real view of the ECU. If it still doesn't work, I'll pull the ECU out and take it apart as you suggest, even as I order another replacement. Might as well keep a spare good one for back up.

**************************

I now suspect the ECU was NEVER good. Here's where we started...

Remember I said there was some kind of weird wire coming off FPR (fuel relay) that ran through a bulb and out the relay box? Yeah. That thing was wired to the mount for the relay box. The wire it came off of? The same ground we've been talking about that goes to #20 on the ECU.

What I suspect is that the ECU went bad; rather than replace it, they (previous owner/sketchy shop) wired the bulb inline and grounded the FPR relay to the mount (which is made of metal, and attached to the wall of the engine bay) with the bulb to confirm connection.

This made no sense to me at the time; I thought it was something they were using to check an unknown issue, but the bulb (heh) in my head didn't go off, warning me to consider why there would be some bullpucky fix on the very same area I was looking at; the bulb was dead when I pulled it out, and knowing nothing more, I simply removed the whole wire/bulb jobby and went ahead as if everything was OK. In fact, the reason I now suspect the system ran was the 12v grounded through the bulb. The bulb died, and killed the ground. I removed the whole shebang, leading us to this impasse.

Now, I only wonder who the hell was responsible for that? doesn't look like my guys at Nyscoe did it (too shoddy/homemade), so how long has it been there? Who knows.

Pics of the new stuff later today. Updates on Thursday.

Happy New Year!

L.

[Amskeptic]

The bulb died, and killed the ground. I removed the whole shebang, leading us to this impasse.

Now, I only wonder who the hell was responsible for that? .

That is dang fascinating. Try re-hooking that up. A light bulb is a poor man's resistor. It is also the controlled voltage supply to the excitor diodes on the alternator, the factory uses the warning lamp.
Colin

[Lanval]

Yeah, like I didn't throw that piece of shit away as soon as I pulled it out.


What would you be after, then? It certainly wasn't OEM/original to the van. Not judging by the crappy electrical tape, and the way in which the wire was wound lazily about the screw that holds down the relay box.

The old wiring is taking a quick trip to the big green box. The ECU is gonna be replaced. This POS is going to be a reliable, OEM/standard van. It's going to be my magic carpet. My citadel against the chaotic winds of chance.

L.

[satchmo]

It's going to be my magic carpet. My citadel against the chaotic winds of chance.

L.

Okay, good luck with that.

Experience, however, has taught me otherwise.

Experience has also taught me not to throw any part away before I confirm its replacement is working correctly (see below).

Tim

[Lanval]

Experience has also taught me not to throw any part away before I confirm its replacement is working correctly (see below).

Tim

Eh, I rest easy. I readily identified that it was a complete POS from the get-go. Don't forget, this whole problem emerged because someone opted to wire up a jury-rigged fix rather than fix a simple problem with a few hundred dollars. The kick on this is: They didn't eliminate the cost ~ they just passed it on to me. Kind of like how our gov't works (tax the future through deficit spending)...

All that little wire was doing was hiding the truth of the situation. If I wished, it would take me all of 5 minutes to make another one and splice it back in, but that's just reproducing the bullpucky that we started with. I don't make any claims to ethical high ground, but for the sake of all that is holy, when you see a problem, FIX it. Don't pass it on to others... so I'm going to fix this. It will work. That's not a question, it's a statement. I am Lanval, hear me roar (or if we're to follow the literary model, hear me meekly follow the Fairy Queen to a never-never land beyond the reach of the status and wealth obsessed Arthurian Court....).

Heh.

L.

[Amskeptic]

Experience has also taught me not to throw any part away before I confirm its replacement is working correctly (see below).

Tim

All that little wire was doing was hiding the truth of the situation.
I'm going to fix this. It will work. That's not a question, it's a statement.

I am Lanval, hear me roar (or if we're to follow the literary model, hear me meekly follow the Fairy Queen to a never-never land beyond the reach of the status and wealth obsessed Arthurian Court....)

Tell it, Lanval, tell it.
Colin

[Lanval]

OK, started in taking things down today, with intentions to put it all back tomorrow. No joy though, because the throttle body gasket is torn. I'll order that along with a couple of other things that could be replaced (the chewed tube from the oil breather tower is a good example) from Van Cafe and plan on getting things together over the weekend.

A couple of questions:

1. Can I reuse the gaskets we installed for the intake runners? Or is it too hard to clean them...?

2. How do I remove the accelerator cable from the round pin in the throttle body?

3. Any issues to consider with replacing the throttle body gate? Here's a pic of the plate from the newer TB. You can see the plate is a bit scruffy with oxidation/etc.



The old TB is crappy outside, but the gate inside is pristine, so I plan to swap them.

4. Any reason I can't sand these mating surface of these beautiful black runners? They've got a bit of grunge and I'd like to clean them up.



Thanks guys,

L.

[satchmo]

I'll try. Here goes:

1 & 4) If you are talking about the head to runner gaskets, those can usually be reused. They are a little asymmetric and only go on one way, so pay attention. However, if you do a lot of sanding/revision on the mating surface of the intake runners, it would probably be best to get new gaskets since you have changed the geometry there a bit and it may affect the seal.

2) Isn't the accel. cable held in place by a barrel nut? If you don't have a nut there, or if the nut/ferrule is seized, start applying penetrating oil and get creative.

3) What was the problem with your old TB? If the old gate has little wear, it should be okay to swap with the newer one. Check the clearances around the gate once installed to make sure you don't have air leaks and that it rotates smoothly. You may need to do a little homemade repair in the throat of the newer TB if the corrosion has lead to pitting. I think some metal epoxy will work.

I have a set of four new/never installed plenum to runner rubber tubes if you need them. Good luck.

Tim

[Lanval]

I'll try. Here goes:

1 & 4) If you are talking about the head to runner gaskets, those can usually be reused. They are a little asymmetric and only go on one way, so pay attention. However, if you do a lot of sanding/revision on the mating surface of the intake runners, it would probably be best to get new gaskets since you have changed the geometry there a bit and it may affect the seal.

I may have an extra set of phenolic gaskets ~ I'll check. I don't imagine anything I do will change the mating surface... just scuff/clean was my goal. When we installed the phenolic gaskets, we used some of the sticky gasket stuff that comes with the head gaskets, which makes me wonder if they can be cleaned up, or must be replaced.

2) Isn't the accel. cable held in place by a barrel nut? If you don't have a nut there, or if the nut/ferrule is seized, start applying penetrating oil and get creative.

3) What was the problem with your old TB? If the old gate has little wear, it should be okay to swap with the newer one. Check the clearances around the gate once installed to make sure you don't have air leaks and that it rotates smoothly. You may need to do a little homemade repair in the throat of the newer TB if the corrosion has lead to pitting. I think some metal epoxy will work.

The old TB is rusty beyond all measure with years of ratpiss. The whole shebang works, but can't really be cleaned or lubed; at least, not without a dip in some kind of acidic bath. The accelerator cable doesn't/can't move as freely as it should due to rust. So the new one goes in to:

eliminate rusty issues
reduce overall smell of rat pee
improve engine aesthetics
allow actual work to be done to TB

I have a set of four new/never installed plenum to runner rubber tubes if you need them. Good luck.

Thanks, I have brand new ones on. They'll be a bit rusty from the old plenum/runners, but I'll clean and reuse them.

Tim

Tim, I just noticed you're from Pullman. I have a funny story for you. Many years ago, when I was getting ready to go to college, I talked with my grandmother (who was footing the bill) about where I might go. Now, my family all comes from Yakima and Walla Walla. My Grandmother and Grandfather met at WSU, both my Uncle and my Mother attended WSU, as did my Aunt on my Father's side.

So Grandma asked me where I wanted to go, and I said, "I'd like to go to the U of W." I wanted to study liberal arts, it was the best school for that in the NW, etc.

Her response, with a totally straight face: "No Huskies in the family."

I asked her if she was serious, and she just stared me down.

I graduated from the U of O in 92.

Go Cougs!

PS. If you happen to have any brand new, never used Cougar gold cheese, by all means, send it along. Best. Cheese. Ever.

And I say that after growing up on Tillamook which is easily the best cheese available in the supermarkets in the US.

Best,

Michael L

[Amskeptic]

OK, started in taking things down today, with intentions to put it all back tomorrow. No joy though, because the throttle body gasket is torn. I'll order that along with a couple of other things that could be replaced (the chewed tube from the oil breather tower is a good example) from Van Cafe and plan on getting things together over the weekend.

A couple of questions:

1. Can I reuse the intake runner gaskets?
2. How do I remove the accelerator cable ?
3. Any issues to consider with replacing the throttle body gate?
4. Any reason I can't sand these mating surface of these beautiful black runners?

1) Yes, of course, we used grease during installation. You do check them of course for any signs of ripping or tearing.
2) Wasn't there a simple 8mm barrel clamp? Once the clamp is loosened, you can pull the cable out then the barrel out of the throttle lever.
3) Are you talking about the throttle plate or the adjustment screw which I referred to as a "gate"? Just GumOut toothbrush scrub the whole throttle body assembly.
4) Sand them on a flat flat flat certifiably flat surface, then wash in soapy hot water.
Colin66*Sunny!