Bus 1 has issues...

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71whitewesty
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Re: Bus 1 has issues...

Post by 71whitewesty » Wed May 30, 2018 9:29 pm

Thanks SlowLane. I have tried another distributor in it. That was last fall though so I will switch out with the one from Bus 2 (which runs insanely good). The one in there came from tasb. I might try a spare I have around too.

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SlowLane
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Re: Bus 1 has issues...

Post by SlowLane » Thu May 31, 2018 9:09 am

71whitewesty wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 9:29 pm
Thanks SlowLane. I have tried another distributor in it. That was last fall though so I will switch out with the one from Bus 2 (which runs insanely good). The one in there came from tasb. I might try a spare I have around too.
May I suggest that you take the time to re-and-re the spare distributor so that you know for certain that it is working well. It would not be time wasted whichever path you eventually take to the solution of getting your bus running well.
'81 Canadian Westfalia (2.0L, manual), now Californiated

"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."
- Terry Pratchett

71whitewesty
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Re: Bus 1 has issues...

Post by 71whitewesty » Thu May 31, 2018 9:17 am

SlowLane wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 9:09 am
71whitewesty wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 9:29 pm
Thanks SlowLane. I have tried another distributor in it. That was last fall though so I will switch out with the one from Bus 2 (which runs insanely good). The one in there came from tasb. I might try a spare I have around too.
May I suggest that you take the time to re-and-re the spare distributor so that you know for certain that it is working well. It would not be time wasted whichever path you eventually take to the solution of getting your bus running well.
What do you mean by re and re?
I think they all work ok and I have gone more or less through them to clean them up etc. but I can’t say for sure they all work perfect because I’m not sure how to test them other than putting them in a bus and trying it. I do know the vacuum cans are good, I bought them nos.

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SlowLane
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Re: Bus 1 has issues...

Post by SlowLane » Thu May 31, 2018 12:18 pm

71whitewesty wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 9:17 am
What do you mean by re and re?
I think they all work ok and I have gone more or less through them to clean them up etc. but I can’t say for sure they all work perfect because I’m not sure how to test them other than putting them in a bus and trying it. I do know the vacuum cans are good, I bought them nos.
Disassemble, clean, inspect, re-assemble with fresh grease.
'81 Canadian Westfalia (2.0L, manual), now Californiated

"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."
- Terry Pratchett

71whitewesty
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Re: Bus 1 has issues...

Post by 71whitewesty » Thu May 31, 2018 4:04 pm

I’ve been out messing with it to no avail. I’ve tried all sorts of fuel mixture/ idle screw combos. Even messed with the timing again. I actually think it’s running worse now. One thing I noticed this time is when I pull off the advance hose (visible one on the front of the can that goes to the left side of the carb) it wants to die right away unless I give it some gas. Now the retard (back of can to front of carb) doesn’t seem to do much or anything when I pull it off. I’m about ready to switch carbs and distributors with my good running Bus 2 and see how that works.

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SlowLane
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Re: Bus 1 has issues...

Post by SlowLane » Thu May 31, 2018 4:48 pm

71whitewesty wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 4:04 pm
I’ve been out messing with it to no avail. I’ve tried all sorts of fuel mixture/ idle screw combos. Even messed with the timing again. I actually think it’s running worse now. One thing I noticed this time is when I pull off the advance hose (visible one on the front of the can that goes to the left side of the carb) it wants to die right away unless I give it some gas. Now the retard (back of can to front of carb) doesn’t seem to do much or anything when I pull it off. I’m about ready to switch carbs and distributors with my good running Bus 2 and see how that works.
Terms like "front" and "back" have long been a point of contention among rear-engined VW users. :drunken:
Personally I follow St. Muir's convention of "front is front". ie. the front of the car is the front, so it follows that the flywheel is at the front end of the engine and the pulley is at the back end.
For items with a fixed position on the engine like the carb, this'll work (I think the retard port that you called out on the "front" of the carb I would say was at the "back" of the carb).

But for items like the distributor, which can have a non-orthoganol orientation wrt. the strict front-back, left-right vehicle coordinate system, we need to adopt a different convention. So i would call the retard nipple on the vacuum can as the one "closest to" the distributor or "on the inside", and the advance nipple to be "furthest from" the distributor or "on the outside". Yeah, pretty fuzzy, I know. Sorry. :scratch:

Having said all that, your symptoms are mysterious, because it sounds as if you have the hoses connected correctly. But at idle, with the throttle plate completly closed, there should be no vacuum at all on the advance hose, but full mainfold vacuum on the retard hose. So pulling off the advance hose while idling should have no effect, but pulling off the retard hose should cause the timing to advance suddenly by about 12 degrees and the idle speed to shoot up accordingly.

Do you have a vacuum gauge? i think it would help to diagnose what's going on with your DVDA.
'81 Canadian Westfalia (2.0L, manual), now Californiated

"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."
- Terry Pratchett

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wcfvw69
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Re: Bus 1 has issues...

Post by wcfvw69 » Thu May 31, 2018 5:54 pm

Here's what you need to do. Plug both vacuum hoses to the vacuum canister off the carb. Set your timing to 7.5BTDC at idle on the 205Q. Readjust your volume and bypass adjustments on the carb for best idle. How does it idle now?

The distributor is only a switch at idle. The points lobe is firing each plug. The advance weights are not in play at 900 rpm. If your distributor cap/rotor and wires are good, the distributor is not causing your issue at idle if you have both vacuum hoses blocked off.

If your vacuum can is leaking on the retard side or the advance side, it can create some problems for you when trying to make those adjustments at idle with the vacuum hoses plugged into the vacuum can. That's why you want to remove the vacuum hoses and plug them. You're taking that out of play as you try to adjust the carb.
1970 Westfalia bus. Stock 1776 dual port type 1 engine. Restored German Solex 34-3. Restored 205Q distributor, restored to factory appearance engine.

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tommu
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Re: Bus 1 has issues...

Post by tommu » Thu May 31, 2018 10:24 pm

My '71 Ghia tied me in knots with very similar symptoms. Repeatedly and finically.

My poor idling and running resulted from not always idling on the idle circuit. I had a few different issues with my accelerator cable hanging up in the guide tube - and the guide tube itself falling loose. I also had a sticking throttle butterfly and a mis-adjusted throttle stop. All of which affected consistent return or simple adjustment of the throttle plate.

Getting vacuum at idle might be why you were stalling when you remove the advance hose. Could the throttle stop screw be out a little too far and thus keeping the throttle plate open a little too much?

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Amskeptic
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Re: Bus 1 has issues...

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Jun 01, 2018 12:40 am

71whitewesty wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 7:34 pm
And maybe we’re not on to something....
Been driving around today and it still wants to die at idle. Now it seems to not want to idle on start up either, like the choke isn’t working. Don’t think that’s the issue though. I retarded the timing a bit because I had it too far advanced and I unscrewed the idle adjustment way out and also the fuel mixture. Went way out with both and playing around with them somewhere in between too. I have not counted how many turns out but a lot. Something is still fishy and driving me nuts. Thought I had it earlier cause it was idling a little on the fast side and now is has settled way low. I feel dizzy with all the unscrewing, retarding and advancing. I’m just at a loss here and can’t believe I can’t figure it out.
D) what is the idle speed?
E) pull off the cut-off solenoid wire - what happens?
If no change, your problem is here. If it dies, reattach wire, restart, and:
F) no matter the consequence, reattach the retard - what is idle speed now?


Helloo
I can't walk you through the Valley of Confusion if my questions go unanswered and continual vague suppositions crop up to distract you. We had maybe established that you had AIR (idle speed went up with the big brass screw), that you had FUEL (mixture screw responded), but I have no idea if your cut-off solenoid is responding correctly, and I have no idea if your retard is responsive. Wouldn't it be funny if the wire to your cut-off solenoid was intermittent because your choke wire and the cut-off wire were not getting good electrical contact at the coil #15?
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

71whitewesty
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Re: Bus 1 has issues...

Post by 71whitewesty » Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:15 am

Ok thanks all. I do actually understand what front and rear of the engine are. I just know that it can confuse some so that’s why I explained in parenthesis too.
Idle cut off works fine. I take the wire off and it dies. I even switched idle cut off too and same results. They both worked fine. Choke side gets warm like it should too.
I thought it was weird that now it dies when I take the advance hose off, that is the opposite of what it was doing a couple days ago.
Idle speed varies from real low, I’d say about 600 rpm to a bit higher than needed about 1500 rpm or so (guessing on both).
Now when I first start it it won’t idle with out me giving it gas. After about 3 minutes it will idle a bit higher for seems like anywhere from 30 seconds to a minute or more and then it starts to settle in real low again. It’s running so shitty now that I might just park it and wait for Colin but damn, it bugs me. I sprayed carb cleaner in all the areas where a vacuum leak could be to no avail. Could not find any leaks.
Now I also have a stock pulley on there and it’s possible my timing marks are off. I can put on a degree pulley and time it with that but that pulley causes it to leak oil so I would take it back off once it’s timed right.
But I have played with the timing so much and still can’t get it right so not convinced that’s the problem yet.
I’m taking bus 2 today down to Bend and then to Woodburn for a vw show on sat so I won’t have time to mess with this until Sunday. Meanwhile I’ll just sit here and bang my head against the wall. :-0

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Amskeptic
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Re: Bus 1 has issues...

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:46 am

71whitewesty wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:15 am
A) I do actually understand what front and rear of the engine are.
Idle speed varies from real low, I’d say about 600 rpm to a bit higher than needed about 1500 rpm or so (guessing on both).

a) Yes, you do, and your post further up was spot-on as to front/rear left/right, I was oriented perfectly.

b) please check idle centrifugal timing at low idle speed, and check idle timing at 1,500 rpm. IF you have a sticky advance unit, you will be chasing your tail in circles.

Note on a spare distributor or another of your chariots, whilst grasping the drive lugs to keep them stationary, that the rotor can move clockwise and *spring back*! See if Bus1 has a freely springing back rotor. If it acts dead-ish, you may need to lubricate the center felt. Ask Bill for details, I must run to appointment!
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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SlowLane
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Re: Bus 1 has issues...

Post by SlowLane » Fri Jun 01, 2018 8:56 am

71whitewesty wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:15 am
I do actually understand what front and rear of the engine are. I just know that it can confuse some so that’s why I explained in parenthesis too.
Okay. Didn't mean to ruffle feathers, but it was one of your parenthetical comments which prompted me to go blathering on about front/back conventions. You referred to the retard nipple as being on the front of the carb. Now, maybe I'm being retarded, but I don't remember any nipples on the carb facing the fan housing on my old Super Beetle.

Whatever, as long as you and Colin are on the same page, I'll stop being a pedantic PITA.
71whitewesty wrote:
Fri Jun 01, 2018 7:15 am
Now I also have a stock pulley on there and it’s possible my timing marks are off. I can put on a degree pulley and time it with that but that pulley causes it to leak oil so I would take it back off once it’s timed right.
Maybe you can use the degree pulley ( assuming it is accurate) to check the timing marks on the stock pulley. Line the two pulleys up so their bores are concentric with the keyways lined up. Note the position of the stock pulley timing mark(s) against the degree wheel.

Aside from that, I'm bowing out of this discussion.
'81 Canadian Westfalia (2.0L, manual), now Californiated

"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."
- Terry Pratchett

71whitewesty
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Re: Bus 1 has issues...

Post by 71whitewesty » Fri Jun 01, 2018 11:17 am

Slowlane, no feathers ruffled at all. Not even a little bit, just wanted to mention that I knew the front, back etc. Believe me anyone trying to help is not ruffling any feathers, I really appreciate it very much. My only frustration is that I can’t seem to figure this out so please don’t leave the conversation, your advice is great.
I will get back to this on Sunday since I’m about to leave on a short trip in Bus 2. I will check the distributor then and most likely switch distributors and test and then the carb and test from my great running Bus 2. I will also check my pulley timing marks against the degree pulley I have.
Thanks again and sorry if my notes came off wrong, I should have stuck an emoji or something there but on the “quick reply’s” there are no emojis. All help is always appreciated. You can even tease me or give me shit, I can take it. I am no master mechanic and know it so all help is really appreciated.

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Re: Bus 1 has issues...

Post by 71whitewesty » Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:36 pm

Ok I’m back at it.
Today I took off all vacuum lines and plugged both ends, the retard and advance hoses and where they connect. I also removed and plugged the brake booster hose at the manifold. I then removed the stock pulley and put on another pulley that I just synced up with a degree pully (I would have just put the pulley on with the degrees but that one will make it leak so used an after market And marked it.
I then timed it at 28-30 degrees. I let it idle and it idles perfect....for about 5-7 seconds. Then the idle drops down until it either just barely runs or dies.
To me this seems like a vacuum leak. Although I don’t think the carb is adjusted right, I don’t think it’s just in the adjustment.
I am not sure what to think of it. I have sprayed carb cleaner around the intake boots and manifold near the head and around the carb.
I haven’t driven it but it seems to start ok and with a little gas runs just fine. But then the idle drops when you let off the gas.


On another note. Just took Bus 2 on a flawless 400 mile loop down to Bend to look at a bus and then over to Woodburn for the VW show and swap. I’m looking for a bus for my wife’s cousin. Pretty sure I found a great one at the show. Details to come... :bootyshake: .

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wcfvw69
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Re: Bus 1 has issues...

Post by wcfvw69 » Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:02 pm

What happens when you turn in the bypass screw out to increase the idle? Will the increased idle hold and stay at that RPM?

http://www.vw-resource.com/carb.html#34

This is a decent article on adjusting that carb if you haven't seen it.
1970 Westfalia bus. Stock 1776 dual port type 1 engine. Restored German Solex 34-3. Restored 205Q distributor, restored to factory appearance engine.

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