82 a/c vanagon running well stopped then no start

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boogie child
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Re: 82 a/c vanagon running well stopped then no start

Post by boogie child » Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:52 pm

Just re-found colin's double relay write up just what I was looking for. That will help my search for voltage drops.
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cegammel
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Re: 82 a/c vanagon running well stopped then no start

Post by cegammel » Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:10 pm

Did you swap in a known good double relay? I though mine was checking out good as well...and it was, as long as the intermittent failure was intermittent. Replacing the thing with a new one fixed a very similar issue for me.

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Re: 82 a/c vanagon running well stopped then no start

Post by boogie child » Sun Aug 27, 2017 4:42 pm

Got my battery charger and gave battery a full charge battery at the terminals tested at 13.15 volts, once the ignition is on volts dropped steadily to 12.7 and held there, no loss from terminals to cables. Terminal 30 at fuse block and at the starter get full battery voltage.
with ignition on:
battery, term 30 fuse block and starter- 12.7, terminal 15 at fuse #12 after ignition switch 11.7, term 15 @ coil 11.5
Cranking:
battery- 11.5, term 15 @ fuse 12 10.8, ignition coil 10.4
term 30 fuse block-11.4, starter- 10.6
So getting voltage drop at cranking. Battery? starter? Ignition switch? Guess I have to figure out the volt drop test to narrow it down.
82 2.0 air cooled the boogie bus

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boogie child
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Re: 82 a/c vanagon running well stopped then no start

Post by boogie child » Sun Aug 27, 2017 4:43 pm

cegammel, I was wondering about the double relay it was my first guess. You had a similar issue? just a relay replace did the trick?
82 2.0 air cooled the boogie bus

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Amskeptic
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Re: 82 a/c vanagon running well stopped then no start

Post by Amskeptic » Sun Aug 27, 2017 6:09 pm

boogie child wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 4:42 pm
Got my battery charger and gave battery a full charge battery at the terminals tested at 13.15 volts, once the ignition is on volts dropped steadily to 12.7 and held there, no loss from terminals to cables. Terminal 30 at fuse block and at the starter get full battery voltage.
with ignition on:
battery, term 30 fuse block and starter- 12.7, terminal 15 at fuse #12 after ignition switch 11.7, term 15 @ coil 11.5
Cranking:
battery- 11.5, term 15 @ fuse 12 10.8, ignition coil 10.4
term 30 fuse block-11.4, starter- 10.6
So getting voltage drop at cranking. Battery? starter? Ignition switch? Guess I have to figure out the volt drop test to narrow it down.

That seems to be a substantial voltage drop through the ignition path.
Hot-wire the battery (+) directly to the coil, and immediately see if it starts. Disconnect immediately after test if it does not start. If it does start, pull off hot-wire while it is there idling. Does it stall?
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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SlowLane
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Re: 82 a/c vanagon running well stopped then no start

Post by SlowLane » Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:29 pm

boogie child wrote:
Sun Aug 27, 2017 4:42 pm
Guess I have to figure out the volt drop test to narrow it down.
This tool might help, though its use is a bit unintuitive. I had to read through the instruction manual a few times to figure out what it was doing.
'81 Canadian Westfalia (2.0L, manual), now Californiated

"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."
- Terry Pratchett

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Re: 82 a/c vanagon running well stopped then no start

Post by boogie child » Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:14 pm

Hot wired from battery to coil, no start. Does this point to the starter?
82 2.0 air cooled the boogie bus

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Re: 82 a/c vanagon running well stopped then no start

Post by boogie child » Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:31 pm

Gotta say, I am learning a lot about the electrical system of these things, and wiring diagrams, and the use of a multi meter, while I am frustrating myself and becoming pissed off. I am fighting the urge to just throw parts at it. I am trying to be logical. It seems that bypassing the ignition switch takes that out of the picture as a problem leaving the starter, I think, as the possible culprit. My fear is that I may be barking up the wrong tree and that it is not the ignition system. But everything else seemed to test out and I do have a voltage drop somewhere. I must stay the course.
Has anyone else had a double relay that tested ok but turned out to be bad as was the case for cegammel?
82 2.0 air cooled the boogie bus

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Re: 82 a/c vanagon running well stopped then no start

Post by dingo » Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:15 pm

I recently had Ljet FI problems that came down to low voltage, and i can verify that the FI is not happy with marginal voltage or even a mildly weak battery. ...so altho you may have another issue as well, id say its critical to find the source of the voltage drop.

Start with POs cable from Batt+ to starter, and also check from Batt_ to chassis ground. I had volt drops in both places plus the ignition switch...it addss up accumulatively...and the next thing yuou know, 1 or 2 voilts have dissappeared... Also make sure all terminals and contacts are clean of rust and corrosion.
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Re: 82 a/c vanagon running well stopped then no start

Post by boogie child » Thu Aug 31, 2017 7:56 pm

I am at a loss. After running a hotwire from battery to coil and getting no start, I decided to replace the starter as it had never been replaced to my knowledge, As I was disconnecting the connections I found the hot wire from the starter to the double relay was hanging by a thread I thought that I had finally found the issue, so I fixed that connection cleaned all the connectors and installed new starter. I also changed out the double relay to rule that out. No luck, still no start still getting only 10.6 volts at the coil during cranking, didn't have a helper to test cranking voltage at starter but I'm guessing it is still 10.6 also. hotwired the coil again still no start. tested the volt drop from battery positive terminal to the starter positive and it was .25 volts. Not showing any drop from negative post to end of ground cable but that is tough to get a reading on. I went through the fuel injection tests again I have 35 lb pressure at the rail I have flashing at the injector with the noid light, temp sensor good ohms, no start with cold start disconnected and full throttle, cold start valve not leaking, all the readings at the airflow meter good. I have spark at the coil to dist cable, and at spark plug. spark plug dry. No start with starter fluid at the s boot. I don't know where to go from here. I don't think a .25 volt drop from the battery to starter is what I'm looking for don't know where else to look. Help
Kent
82 2.0 air cooled the boogie bus

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Re: 82 a/c vanagon running well stopped then no start

Post by asiab3 » Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:47 pm

After a bit of cranking with no start, can you pull a spark plug and check for a wet/shiny tip? This will prove that your fuel injection system is delivering fuel.

With the key on, stick a drumstick, paint mixing stick, or pencil into the AFM intake tract (requires removing air filter) and listen for the fuel pump. Can you hear it run? If you feel like the flap on the AFM is "stuck shut" and then pops open smoothly, it is possible that the same backfire that popped your decel valve hose off jammed the AFM door shut.

Last page, you mentioned that you have not had time to adjust your valves. Please do this if you have not already. Two years ago, a '76 bus nearly beat me to the ground, after hour five I found that an intake valve was so poorly adjusted that it kept backfiring up the intake and blowing hoses off. Hey, wait, didn't you have an intake hose blown off? ;) My cause was actually a valve adjuster nut that wasn't tightened down, which allowed the valve to un-adjust itself over about 400 miles until it popped the hose and wouldn't run anymore. Check EVERY bit of hose in your engine compartment for evidence of misplacement. The four wide and short intake runner cloth hoses are prime examples of hoses that can slide off but not look out of place. Also check the vacuum hoses on the brake booster check valve; some are in the engine compartment and easily visible, while some are under the car and subject to pop-offs without visual evidence.

Good luck, and keep us posted with answers to questions.
Robbie
1969 bus, "Buddy."
145k miles with me.
322k miles on Earth.

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Re: 82 a/c vanagon running well stopped then no start

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:28 am

boogie child wrote:
Wed Jul 12, 2017 7:37 pm
82 a/c vanagon. So any tips on most common cause for running well to no start with no warning?
Also when I am cranking it will backfire (?) blowing the vacuum hose from the intake to the decel
valve.
Perhaps your distributor drive dogs slipped and the engine is completely out of time. This can happen when the little spring inadvertently pushes the distributor up as you move the distributor when timing it. It just needs to be indexed to the drive dogs and pressed down firmly as you tighten the clamp bolt.

Rotate engine to TDC #1. Is distributor rotor at #1 spark plug wire terminal on the cap?
Check that the valves on #3 are both moving as you sweep 45* either way past TDC #1.
Report back.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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boogie child
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Re: 82 a/c vanagon running well stopped then no start

Post by boogie child » Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:30 pm

I will check the distributor, and I will check for top dead center @ number1 to make sure I'm on 1 and not 3. I have hydraulic valves but I will adjust them per your write up. then recheck the dwell and static re- time it. Unfortunately this will all have to wait for 2 weeks as I am heading out on vacation. I will not give up on this, thanks for all the ideas one of them is bound to work.
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cegammel
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Re: 82 a/c vanagon running well stopped then no start

Post by cegammel » Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:40 pm

I consider spare parts a boon...but I have storage space...or at least I did before I started collecting spare parts...
I know that my double relay tested good...but I must have been testing incorrectly... I also had so many other gremlins that the diagnostics diagnosed but were not really the issue that each path became bottomless quickly. Sort of like my starter issue...all of the tests show bad wires, faulty switch, weak battery...but a new starter fixed the damned thing...

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