83 Vanagon bucking at 60 mph

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Randy in Maine
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Re: 83 Vanagon bucking at 60 mph

Post by Randy in Maine » Mon Apr 11, 2016 7:52 am

First off you will need to remove the engine when you and Colin do the front main crankshaft main bearing seal. Front of engine = front of car. Colin will also help you set "the endplay" back to the spec. While the engine is out will be the time to do the rear main seal (by the cooling fan) also.

If you decide to "adjust your valves" , keep in mind that you likely have hydraulic lifters and they will get set to to about 1.25 turns past contact or there abouts. In olden days, VWs used mechanical lifters and those were set to a gap of about 0.006" between the lifter and the valve stem. Your will be set to less than zero by about 1.25mm (the thread pitch on the "screw" you will be turning is 1.0 mm so you will be turning it 1.25 turns after it hits zero. Think of it as "negative gap". I use the thinnest feeler gauge I have to figure just where the point of "contact" is so I will know when I need to start counting the turns of the screw. Always go through it twice so that you can repeat your work to confirm that it was done correctly.

Generally the other thing that makes a hydraulic lifter "tick" is from dirty oil. They like nice clean oil and plenty of it. My suggestion is always to use the NAPA Gold filter (made by Wix) and some of that sweet Mobil 1 15-50 synthetic oil bought in the 5 quart container at Walmart of $26. That oil has the zinc we so love. Other people likely have other opinions, but that is their problem.
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Re: 83 Vanagon bucking at 60 mph

Post by 83AC » Mon Apr 11, 2016 9:28 am

Randy in Maine wrote:First off you will need to remove the engine when you and Colin do the front main crankshaft main bearing seal. Front of engine = front of car. Colin will also help you set "the endplay" back to the spec. While the engine is out will be the time to do the rear main seal (by the cooling fan) also.

If you decide to "adjust your valves" , keep in mind that you likely have hydraulic lifters and they will get set to to about 1.25 turns past contact or there abouts. In olden days, VWs used mechanical lifters and those were set to a gap of about 0.006" between the lifter and the valve stem. Your will be set to less than zero by about 1.25mm (the thread pitch on the "screw" you will be turning is 1.0 mm so you will be turning it 1.25 turns after it hits zero. Think of it as "negative gap". I use the thinnest feeler gauge I have to figure just where the point of "contact" is so I will know when I need to start counting the turns of the screw. Always go through it twice so that you can repeat your work to confirm that it was done correctly.

Generally the other thing that makes a hydraulic lifter "tick" is from dirty oil. They like nice clean oil and plenty of it. My suggestion is always to use the NAPA Gold filter (made by Wix) and some of that sweet Mobil 1 15-50 synthetic oil bought in the 5 quart container at Walmart of $26. That oil has the zinc we so love. Other people likely have other opinions, but that is their problem.
Thanks for the info. Yeah - it sounds like Colin and I are going to have a big day together! I better get straight on having the right equipment available to do this work!

I had already read up on the hydraulic lifter stuff, and I think I will also go ahead and change the oil around the same time for good measure. I was using 20w50 so far - Castrol I think. You think the Mobil 1 15 50 synthetic is better though? I added Marvel Mystery Oil as well to the oil and gas per recommendations. That didn't change the ticking.

Do you think the NAPA Gold filter is as good as/better than the Mann/Mahle or other German brand sold for these? I've got that one on there now - replaced at my last oil change. Should I replace at this oil change or the next? I thought you replace them every other oil change. I also want to check and clean out the oil strainer this time - I didn't do that last time.

I'm wondering if one of the lifters may be bad/not pumping up, but this is another area I am just learning. I also have new adjusting screws to replace any that may be worn.

Any and all advice will be welcome!
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Randy in Maine
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Re: 83 Vanagon bucking at 60 mph

Post by Randy in Maine » Mon Apr 11, 2016 9:54 am

I think the NAPA Golds are better than the Mahle/Mann filters. The purpose of the Marvel Mystery oil was to add some just befor eht eoil change to allow it to help clean any crud and sludge out of the engine for the next oil change.

Next oil change try the Mobil 1. It has a lot of detergents in it also so if there is a sticky lifter it might help quiet that down by allowing it to pump up better. All pumped up lifters should be nice and firm, non-pumped up ones will feel a little spongy when you push on them with a screwdriver.
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Re: 83 Vanagon bucking at 60 mph

Post by 83AC » Mon Apr 11, 2016 1:30 pm

Randy in Maine wrote:I think the NAPA Golds are better than the Mahle/Mann filters. The purpose of the Marvel Mystery oil was to add some just befor eht eoil change to allow it to help clean any crud and sludge out of the engine for the next oil change.

Next oil change try the Mobil 1. It has a lot of detergents in it also so if there is a sticky lifter it might help quiet that down by allowing it to pump up better. All pumped up lifters should be nice and firm, non-pumped up ones will feel a little spongy when you push on them with a screwdriver.
To remove the lifters, do I have to crush the push rod tubes? Or does this mean I have to remove the heads? I'm pretty intimidated here. It sounds like a big job to get the lifters out for inspection. Is that accurate? I've been trying to find clear info on how to remove them, and I didn't see it in the Bentley from my quick search.
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Re: 83 Vanagon bucking at 60 mph

Post by 83AC » Mon Apr 11, 2016 1:50 pm

I think I just found the answer to my question. It sounds like a job, but it sounds like a job I can probably do if I give myself the patience and a day to work at it. I guess the first step is to check the lifters and go from there with work process. . . oh boy.
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Re: 83 Vanagon bucking at 60 mph

Post by cegammel » Mon Apr 11, 2016 2:05 pm

Why are you trying to remove the lifters? You do not need to crush the tubes...they come through the heads. It can be tricky to remove them without deforming them, so go easy with the vicegrips. Removing the engine is way easier than it sounds. Don't be intimidated by the process, bit do take precautions...like labelling wires and hoses, and bagging all nuts and bolts, also labelled.

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Randy in Maine
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Re: 83 Vanagon bucking at 60 mph

Post by Randy in Maine » Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:21 pm

There will be no removing of the lifters or crushing anything.

To change out a leaking pushrod tube (or several) you will be using your Gum Out spray (buy 3 cans) and 3 rolls of Brawny paper towels. Make sure you have an 11mm socket and an inch pound torque wrench handy even if you buy it at Harbor Freight.

I gently remove my pushrod tubes using something like this......the 90º lets you gently grip the tube and pry against the casting without boogering up the tubes. I like to use the Locktite 565 (sort of a liquid teflon) on the O-rings so that they don't leak. Sometimes the ends of the tubes are pretty sharp and it is really easy to slice one of you new Viton seals. I had to take mine to the bench grinder wire wheel to "de-burr" a tube or two.

http://www.amazon.com/TEKTON-34406-10-I ... +90+degree
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Re: 83 Vanagon bucking at 60 mph

Post by 83AC » Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:48 pm

Randy in Maine wrote:There will be no removing of the lifters or crushing anything.

To change out a leaking pushrod tube (or several) you will be using your Gum Out spray (buy 3 cans) and 3 rolls of Brawny paper towels. Make sure you have an 11mm socket and an inch pound torque wrench handy even if you buy it at Harbor Freight.

I gently remove my pushrod tubes using something like this......the 90º lets you gently grip the tube and pry against the casting without boogering up the tubes. I like to use the Locktite 565 (sort of a liquid teflon) on the O-rings so that they don't leak. Sometimes the ends of the tubes are pretty sharp and it is really easy to slice one of you new Viton seals. I had to take mine to the bench grinder wire wheel to "de-burr" a tube or two.

http://www.amazon.com/TEKTON-34406-10-I ... +90+degree
Giant sigh of relief - many thanks to both of you for the replies! I'm feeling better and better about this stuff . . . maybe even excited knowing that while it will be a challenge it is do-able, even for me! It looks like I have at least one leaking tube, so new seals on that one will be in order anyway. So I can check how my lifts feel by pressing down on the rocker arm where it is knurled, correct? And then if they feel spongy or soft I can go through the process of removing the push rod, tube, and then lifter to bleed it down or replace?

Also, what is the best way for me to turn the engine to get each cylinder near TDC as I do a valve adjustment? With the older buses I know you could turn the engine manually, but I don't think there is an easy way to do that on my 83AC. When I replaced the valve cover gaskets I was going to do an adjustment and chickened out because I didn't yet understand the solid vs. hydraulic stuff. I put the van in 4th and rolled it backwards until I had cylinder 1 at TDC. I haven't found a good answer on the best way to do this yet other than just cranking the engine briefly and getting close to TDC.
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cegammel
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Re: 83 Vanagon bucking at 60 mph

Post by cegammel » Mon Apr 11, 2016 5:24 pm

I put a socket on the fan bolt...most around here find that risky, so you may need to find a different method. There was a whole thread on it a few months ago. It isn't easy no matter how you do it... On the upside, hydraulics don't need to be adjusted very often. Also know that there is leeway on the adjustments. Somewhere bewteen 1.25 and 2 turns in is good. The key is to vary your adjustment each time so the lifters are compressed at different depths. It takes some practice to feel the touch point from which you begin adjustment...the adjustment screw should just contact the valve stem, then count your turns. Good luck!

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Randy in Maine
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Re: 83 Vanagon bucking at 60 mph

Post by Randy in Maine » Mon Apr 11, 2016 5:32 pm

Well here is how i do it as I am an old school guy...

Find #by setting the timing mark on the pulley as described here with 0º on the timing scale. Verify that you are at about where cylinder #1 will fir based on the rotor onside the distributor. Mark that mark as described below with some "white out "(if you are old enough to know what that is).

http://www.ratwell.com/technical/FindTimingMark.html


DO NOT PUT A SOCKET ON THE 13mm BOLT ON THE CENTER OF THE FAN our you will soon be buying a new engine. When that bad boy comes loose, your cranksaft will be toast.

Do the valves on cylinder #1. Turn the crankshaft 180º using your 10" crescent wrench on the alternator pulley nut while pushing down on the fan belt. Then do another 180º and do cylinder #4. Do it again and do #3. Again then do #2. Remember that the crankshaft turns 720º to get the camshaft and the distributor to turn 360º.
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Re: 83 Vanagon bucking at 60 mph

Post by 83AC » Sun Jun 19, 2016 9:23 pm

Update on Penny Lane: This weekend we got to hang out at the Maupin RendezVW and I had the pleasure of meeting Gypsy and some buddies (Hal and Mike). Those guys are awesome! They helped me reset the timing, idle fuel mixture, identify my two remaining pesky air leaks, and a non-working retard valve/diaphragm. All in all, a very successful weekend! She ran nice and smooth all the way home. Bucking was not an issue unless I was pushing up a hill a little hard. Otherwise, she had more power and seemed eager to drive! Many thanks to you guys. It was a blast!

On the less happy side . . . our rear main seal leak is definitely worse (once I parked at home and got out, there was a puddle of oil under the seal area). Also, since a rough road in Bend, we've developed a bit of a wobble/vibration. I climbed under the van tonight and took some pictures and checked things out. It looks like we need new front end bushings, and I think also lower and upper ball joints. The boots on the ball joints look torn or at least in rough shape. There is also a tear in the boot on what I guess is the front drive axle . . . is there a front drive axle? It's not a syncro. I'm having a hard time finding info on the front axles.

I'd love if there is anyone in the Portland or Gorge vicinity interested in a mid-week engine pull to replace the rear main seal! We'll provide delicious dinner and booze to repay the knowledgeable wizard who wants to walk me through it. I mean, if you're out there somewhere! Well, that's the big stuff for now. I'm stoked to get more answers and progress.

Peace,
Anderson
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Re: 83 Vanagon bucking at 60 mph

Post by Amskeptic » Mon Jun 20, 2016 4:02 pm

83AC wrote:rear main seal leak is definitely worse

tear in the boot on what I guess is the front drive axle . . . is there a front drive axle?
Rear main seal? (fan end)
Front main seal? (flywheel end)

Tear in rack and pinion boot?
Colin?
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Re: 83 Vanagon bucking at 60 mph

Post by 83AC » Tue Jun 21, 2016 1:36 pm

Amskeptic wrote:
83AC wrote:rear main seal leak is definitely worse

tear in the boot on what I guess is the front drive axle . . . is there a front drive axle?
Rear main seal? (fan end)
Front main seal? (flywheel end)

Tear in rack and pinion boot?
Colin?
Flywheel seal leak - I keep hearing debate about whether we call this the rear main seal or front main seal, I'll stick to using engine component names from now on. I have everything disconnected in the engine and it's on jack stands - this evening will be pulling and replacing!

Boot is the tie rod boot. I'll be getting into a front end rebuild this summer as well it looks like since the ball joints all need to be replaced and the rubber is all old and hard and cracking in the bushings. I'm not positive this will be done when I see you yet or not, but it could be! I'm pretty motivated.

My goal is to to have this stuff right so you and I can focus on getting me fully up to speed on the engine and seeing if we can't figure out the source of the bucking and a knocking lifter (valve 1). It is putting out less power than the others, as we determined by pulling the spark plug wires 1 at a time to see what the effect was. Engine lost less power when we pulled valve 1 compared to all three others. Something is up there for sure.
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Re: 83 Vanagon bucking at 60 mph

Post by Ronin10 » Tue Jun 21, 2016 1:58 pm

83AC wrote: Flywheel seal leak - I keep hearing debate about whether we call this the rear main seal or front main seal, I'll stick to using engine component names from now on.
I concur. There is the classic statement that "front is front" even though we access the engine - generally - from the rear. Unfortunately, no matter how much we want to lock down terminology, it requires everyone to be on board to get it established. By calling it the flywheel end seal, you eliminate any directional ambiguity. Helps when talking to parts providers to who are just as sloppy about as the rest of the community.
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Re: 83 Vanagon bucking at 60 mph

Post by 83AC » Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:58 am

Engine coming out was a challenge, it being my first time, but we got it out, replaced the flywheel seal and o-ring, put a little oil on the inner edge of the seal, put everything back together, got the engine back in the van quite easily, reconnected everything (yes, correctly), and the van doesn't start. Found one of the wires to the idle stabilization unit was broken off at the base of the plug. I'm working on sorting that out - many kudos to Kubelwagon and Tristessa and Gypsie for their help thus far! Hopefully we will have an update this evening on the fix or bypassing the idle stabilization unit.
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1983 AC Vanagon camper - Penny Lane

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