Type 1 Rocker Assembly Breakage

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Westy78
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Re: Type 1 Rocker Assembly Breakage

Post by Westy78 » Sat Mar 29, 2014 9:58 am

Amskeptic wrote:
Anything to add, Westy78?
Colin
Nope, other than making sure that the chromoly pushrods are set to zero lash while still allowing the pushrod to spin freely, but I think that was already covered. I just can't see how an incorrectly cut pushrod could cause the rocker assembly to come apart like that. Unless they were set to .006 and just vibrated/pounded everything apart but then I would expect some evidence of that on the adjuster screws.
Chorizo, it's what's for breakfast.

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CikanVuz
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Re: Type 1 Rocker Assembly Breakage

Post by CikanVuz » Sat Mar 29, 2014 10:31 am

I know that the first time they went to adjust the valves after the (POS) aftermarket, solid rocker shaft came apart, it was all the way out and way too tight so they took the arm off again and went into "surgery" in the back room with the swivel feet adjusters and then tried it again and this time were able to get it adjusted. And it was after that adjustment it started making the noise.

I am going to look at her soon and see how things are going in there.

In the meantime, I am going to find the workings of a torque motor to put in my spare case cos I am pretty sure the PO just put a "bug" engine in it.

Thank you

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Amskeptic
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Re: Type 1 Rocker Assembly Breakage

Post by Amskeptic » Sun Mar 30, 2014 7:24 am

CikanVuz wrote: In the meantime, I am going to find the workings of a torque motor to put in my spare case cos I am pretty sure the PO just put a "bug" engine in it.
Thank you
Can you explain the "torque motor" versus the "just a bug" engine?

The Great Aftermarket Air-Cooled Marketing Machine, INC. has entreated all of us to consider the more power angle only so far as their specific contribution. The actual execution of more power has to be mightily comprehensive.
If you have more power, you need more cooling.
If you have a "performance exhaust" you kinda need a performance intake/cam.
If you have a performance exhaust/intake/cam, well, you should have an eight dowel flywheel.
If you want to take advantage of a more powerful engine, you should think of a change in gear ratios.

The 1970 "bug" engine is exactly the same engine as the "bus" engine from 1968-1970, and they both had the same dual port engine in 1971. The only detail difference that counts, is that the engines installed in the bus had mounting bosses for the rear carrier. It is good to have the factory mounting bosses.

If anyone has suggested that because you have a lot of "stuff" going on in your bus, and you plan to do a lot of travelling (hills, you know!), you should have an engine that can, you know, handle it, I can tell you from personal experience documented here and on theSamba, that stock engines can totally handle it.

IF you obey the stock set-up and adjustment protocols, Volkswagen promised you decent fuel economy, decent driveability, outstanding reliability, and a very mellow rate of progress, and Volkswagen promised you that you could carry 1,970 lbs of "stuff" to progress with.

The instant you deviate from stock, you had best be ready to monitor cooling capability (CHT gauge good), if you have an external cooler or a full-flow filter set-up with extra hoses, you best have pressure and temperature monitoring, if you have high compression and performance cam and especially some junky aftermarket air filter set-up (even K&N will never claim that they out-filter stock) you might also have to monitor for engine wear by keeping a close eye on the drain plate junk at oil change time.

Not to hit you over the head or anything, but ask yourself what is your intended use of the bus, and do your needs include getting there in a greater hurry?
Colin

Image
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

bus71
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Re: Type 1 Rocker Assembly Breakage

Post by bus71 » Mon Mar 31, 2014 4:31 pm

I had similar problems. I had rocker clips break, shims break repeatedly. These were stock parts. I traced it to lack of lubrication and wear. The rockers needed to be taken apart and all the oil holes blown clean with solvent and compressed air. Push rods too. You may find tiny cracks where pushrods and rods and rockers meet. Once you have cleaned and oiled and correctly reassembled the rockers and set the valves you should be fine. This assumes all else is ok. As far as aftermarket, let it go. I have a 1776 that is happy with a stock valve train. ps I no longer run 20/50 oil, Its 10/30 or 15/40

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Amskeptic
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Re: Type 1 Rocker Assembly Breakage

Post by Amskeptic » Tue Apr 01, 2014 7:51 am

bus71 wrote:ps I no longer run 20/50 oil, Its 10/30 or 15/40
In the summer? Any oil light flickering at hot idle?
Colin
(p.s. the factory recommended viscosity is because they *knew* that these engines open up substantially when warm)
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

bus71
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Re: Type 1 Rocker Assembly Breakage

Post by bus71 » Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:57 am

I use 10/30 in pnw winter, change to 15/40 for eastern wa, or, and sw heat. I have gauges too.
I have over 40# at cruise in hot weather. The oil light has not flickered but the engine is low miles with a new pump. In the past, the oil light would flicker at idle after a hard run in 90+ heat, even with 20/50.
The gauges are vdo with the dual oil pressure sender. I have run it with the vw sender only and it seemed about the same. My reasons for changing from 20/50 are that I feel it does not lubricate the valve train well, too thick. But of course, this is an oil opinion, so.........................

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Amskeptic
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Re: Type 1 Rocker Assembly Breakage

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Apr 02, 2014 6:51 pm

bus71 wrote:My reasons for changing from 20/50 are that I feel it does not lubricate the valve train well, too thick. But of course, this is an oil opinion, so.........................
What were the presenting symptoms that led you to this supposition?
If I told you that it requires "head pressure" to get the oil up the pushrods and through the rocker arms past the rocker shafts to the valve adjuster screws in a hot air-cooled engine, would that change your thinking?
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

bus71
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Re: Type 1 Rocker Assembly Breakage

Post by bus71 » Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:50 am

I base my opinion on rocker arm wear, I would like to hear about head pressure as I think of it terms of wells, water pipes, etc. Then you will hear only the sounds of a 71 bus with a 1641sp, 30pict-1 bocar carb and empi (Gasp!) header roaring off towards the Olympics.

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Amskeptic
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Re: Type 1 Rocker Assembly Breakage

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Apr 04, 2014 7:46 am

bus71 wrote:I base my opinion on rocker arm wear,
Did you have galled rocker shafts?
Stock or aftermarket lifters, pushrods?

When I bought the Road Warrior in 1979, it had evidence of prior galled rocker shafts. Only 81,262 miles on the car. What was that about? Finally figured it out as excessive heat up the heads that had cooked the oil inside the rocker arm drillings causing advanced arteriosclerosis.
Colin
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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Bleyseng
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Re: Type 1 Rocker Assembly Breakage

Post by Bleyseng » Fri Apr 04, 2014 10:38 am

Amskeptic wrote:
bus71 wrote:I base my opinion on rocker arm wear,
Did you have galled rocker shafts?
Stock or aftermarket lifters, pushrods?

When I bought the Road Warrior in 1979, it had evidence of prior galled rocker shafts. Only 81,262 miles on the car. What was that about? Finally figured it out as excessive heat up the heads that had cooked the oil inside the rocker arm drillings causing advanced arteriosclerosis.
Colin
What oil was used if you remember? I used that GTX stuff for years until I noticed it really cooked to the inside of the heads making them the deep brown.
Geoff
77 Sage Green Westy- CS 2.0L-160,000 miles
70 Ghia vert, black, stock 1600SP,- 139,000 miles,
76 914 2.1L-Nepal Orange- 160,000+ miles
http://bleysengaway.blogspot.com/

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Amskeptic
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Re: Type 1 Rocker Assembly Breakage

Post by Amskeptic » Fri Apr 04, 2014 1:44 pm

Bleyseng wrote:
What oil was used if you remember? I used that GTX stuff for years until I noticed it really cooked to the inside of the heads making them the deep brown.
I use Castrol GTX. You can't blame the oil . . . you have to investigate the cause of the heat.
Do you have blasted-open valve guides? Do you run too lean?
You are not going to claim that GTX is somehow known for "cooking to the inside of the heads".
Have you been following the itineraries over the past twelve years? I go to the hottest damn place on the planet at the hottest time of the year, then drive all-out all summer. Then I show photographs of the insides of my heads.

Road Warrior at 550,000 miles:
Image

Squareback after cross country twice:
Image

I'll get you a picture of BobD when I adjust the valves. These heads have not been touched since the factory, but they have done Death Valley and summer interstates for the 50,000 miles I have put on it.

In the past 35 years of driving air-cooled Volkswagens using Castrol GTX, I have never had "deep brown", just a nice light caramel.
Colin
(Would you like an Itinerant Air-Cooled visit? I can show you how to set up your engine for modest temperatures that never cooks the oil in the heads.)
BobD - 78 Bus . . . 112,730 miles
Chloe - 70 bus . . . 217,593 miles
Naranja - 77 Westy . . . 142,970 miles
Pluck - 1973 Squareback . . . . . . 55,600 miles
Alexus - 91 Lexus LS400 . . . 96,675 miles

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