Rough Starting Van

[Lanval]

Several months ago, the van was giving me trouble starting;
it disappeared, and was starting like a dream with a flick of the key. The troubles have now returned... I push-started the rat 4 of the 5 times I started it today.

The battery showed 678 cranking amps at the auto shop, so that's eliminate.

Symptoms
Engine turns over, almost catches. Sometimes, if I floor it ~ give it gas, it'll catch.
Other times, it'll continue to turn over, in a slow loping manner that shakes the engine/auto

Suspects:
1. The starter is suspect; it's an O'Reilly's lifetime special and the second one I've had from them. There are occasions where I'll turn the key and nothing happens for a few seconds, suggesting that the starter itself may be sticky/problematic

2. The electrical system: wires/plugs/etc. haven't been checked. I need to pull the plugs and have a look at them. Double check connections, etc

This week isn't a great week for me, as I've Dr/Dentist appts all week, but I'll try to get a look at the plugs tomorrow, and maybe upload a video of an attempt to start, so it can be heard/seen.

Best,

ML

[Amskeptic]

Several months ago, the van was giving me trouble starting;
it disappeared, and was starting like a dream with a flick of the key. The troubles have now returned... I push-started the rat 4 of the 5 times I started it today.

The battery showed 678 cranking amps at the auto shop, so that's eliminate.

Symptoms
Engine turns over, almost catches. Sometimes, if I floor it ~ give it gas, it'll catch.
Other times, it'll continue to turn over, in a slow loping manner that shakes the engine/auto

Suspects:
1. The starter is suspect; it's an O'Reilly's lifetime special and the second one I've had from them. There are occasions where I'll turn the key and nothing happens for a few seconds, suggesting that the starter itself may be sticky/problematic

2. The electrical system: wires/plugs/etc. haven't been checked. I need to pull the plugs and have a look at them. Double check connections, etc

This week isn't a great week for me, as I've Dr/Dentist appts all week, but I'll try to get a look at the plugs tomorrow, and maybe upload a video of an attempt to start, so it can be heard/seen.

Best,

ML

Let your memory bank be a guide here also.
Is engine cranking at normal speed, or slow?
Does it seem to be drawing voltage down too far when the starter is operating?
Try using jumper cables from the Good Car, running at a high idle, to see if it is a voltage drop that is shutting off the Digi-Jet/Fant whatever it is.

If it is cranking at a known good cranking speed and you do not think there is excessive electrical draw, have a look for vacuum leaks or something that has dumbly taken the ECU out of its parameters.
Colin
Colin

[Lanval]

In fact the turn over rate is variable. As best I can explain in a sample failed start:

First turn of the key turns the engine over a few times, and it comes close to catching ~ right at the edge. Then it stumbles. If I I turn the key again, it turns over slowly, rumbling, and guttural at a lower than normal speed. The starter is most definitely suspect, but:

I had this problem for several months ~ the usual fix was to practically floor the gas pedal on start.

Then, a month or so ago, I checked all the connections, and afterwards, it started running beautifully. A flick of the key, a tap on the gas pedal, started right up. No rough starting, no rumble ~ a perfect start. Then, a failed start two days ago led to rough starting again....

I am of two minds; I believe with absolute certainty that the starter itself is not good. Occasionally, when I turn the key, nothing happens for a bit, and then the engine starts to turn over and start. Other times, I may have to turn the key on/off 10 times or more, and then the starter works.

I also believe there is/are another problem/problems occurring; perhaps the key/switch itself is bad (a common phenomenon on vanagons, and cheap to fix ~ many guys carry a spare switch for this reason) or something with the throttle/ECU setup somewhere.

I'll try to isolate the starter as an issue and go from there.

ML

[Amskeptic]

In fact the turn over rate is variable.
a month or so ago, I checked all the connections, and afterwards, it started running beautifully.
Then, a failed start two days ago led to rough starting again....

I believe with absolute certainty that the starter itself is not good.

I also believe there is/are another problem/problems occurring; perhaps the key/switch itself is bad (a common phenomenon on vanagons, and cheap to fix ~ many guys carry a spare switch for this reason) or something with the throttle/ECU setup somewhere.
I'll try to isolate the starter as an issue and go from there.

ML

If you are under warranty, replace the starter again.

If you get a decent first crank but slow after that, sometimes it is over-advanced timing.

If checking the connections cleared it up one time, try for a second time! But note each activity you perform.
Colin

[Lanval]

Alright ~ I took the FLAPS starter back, and they were unimpressed that I was warrantee-ing it for the second time. Wanted to know if I'd checked other stuff, etc.

Got the new starter in, reconnected everything, viola' ~ started right up.

New starter is working, but I suspect that unless I got the golden Chinese rebuild, this one will fail in the long run too.

Colin ~ I'll try to get a working Bosch out of Elsinore, and either plug it in, or possibly rebuild it using a kit from one of the vendors.

While I had the air box out to get at the starter, I took the opportunity to pull each plug and take a look at it. They were all the same. reddish-brown matte covering, no build up, and no build-up indicating anything untoward in the cylinder.

***************

I was able to get a somewhat closer look at the coolant leak on the passenger side. It is very clearly leaking from the coolant pipe that goes into the engine next to the passenger side head. There can be no doubt about this. It remains possible that the passenger side head itself is leaking as well. There appear to be two spots from which it might be leaking ~ I have photos but will have to upload them later; when I do, I will point out what I'm looking at.

Best,

Michael L:

[Amskeptic]

Alright ~ I took the FLAPS starter back, and they were unimpressed that I was warrantee-ing it for the second time. Wanted to know if I'd checked other stuff, etc.

Got the new starter in, reconnected everything, viola' ~ started right up.

New starter is working, but I suspect that unless I got the golden Chinese rebuild, this one will fail in the long run too.

Colin ~ I'll try to get a working Bosch out of Elsinore, and either plug it in, or possibly rebuild it using a kit from one of the vendors.

While I had the air box out to get at the starter, I took the opportunity to pull each plug and take a look at it. They were all the same. reddish-brown matte covering, no build up, and no build-up indicating anything untoward in the cylinder.

***************

I was able to get a somewhat closer look at the coolant leak on the passenger side. It is very clearly leaking from the coolant pipe that goes into the engine next to the passenger side head. There can be no doubt about this. It remains possible that the passenger side head itself is leaking as well. There appear to be two spots from which it might be leaking ~ I have photos but will have to upload them later; when I do, I will point out what I'm looking at.

Best,

Michael L:

It is not probable that it is the head itself. That would make me sad. It is coolant running from the pipe to the head. Of this I am sure . . . . .

A Toast To The Chinese . . . they own our weekends as we re-re-replace the crap they sell us.
Colin

[Lanval]

well, I spoke too soon sort of on the starting. The starter is indeed fixed ~ this one spins like a top, no slow starts, no non-starts from the starter.

There is however another starting problem which lay underneath the starter issue.

The best way I can describe it is as follows:

If you turn over the engine, and it usually catches in the first couple of seconds, with a kind of "clunk" that is more felt in the system than heard. If the engine doesn't catch at that point, or if you let off the gas/key at that moment (thinking that it had actually fired up) the engine will not start of it's own accord. You can spin the starter and crank it over and over, and it will not start. It doesn't begin to catch and then fail, it just chugs over and over....

In these instances I have to push start (I'm getting very good at finding strategic push start parking spots) and it will usually start the next time. Starting is thus a "sweating bullets" moment for me, as it's not clear what the difference between getting it to "catch" (fire up) and having it not "catch".

As for the leak, when I get a chance, pictures. It's probably the head. Too.

But I might, if I get the chance, try to reseal the pipe ~ question: Do I need to drain the coolant system to remove that pipe? It's at or below the level of the resevoir I think...

ML

[Amskeptic]

well, I spoke too soon sort of on the starting. The starter is indeed fixed ~ this one spins like a top, no slow starts, no non-starts from the starter.

There is however another starting problem which lay underneath the starter issue.

The best way I can describe it is as follows:

If you turn over the engine, and it usually catches in the first couple of seconds, with a kind of "clunk" that is more felt in the system than heard. If the engine doesn't catch at that point, or if you let off the gas/key at that moment (thinking that it had actually fired up) the engine will not start of it's own accord. You can spin the starter and crank it over and over, and it will not start. It doesn't begin to catch and then fail, it just chugs over and over....

In these instances I have to push start (I'm getting very good at finding strategic push start parking spots) and it will usually start the next time. Starting is thus a "sweating bullets" moment for me, as it's not clear what the difference between getting it to "catch" (fire up) and having it not "catch".

As for the leak, when I get a chance, pictures. It's probably the head. Too.

But I might, if I get the chance, try to reseal the pipe ~ question: Do I need to drain the coolant system to remove that pipe? It's at or below the level of the resevoir I think...

ML

Michael, I am not fully sure of Vanagon fuel injection "thinking", but I do know that DigiJet and DigiFant were threading a needle when it came to emissions.

Cold start was supposed to be one spritz of horrible Life On Earth-killing rich fuel, then everything was supposed to dial back quickly. The window of opportunity thus accorded to get the engine running was brief. If your engine decides to stall, then we have a stingy ECU not wanting to fail emissions.

I would start by getting your DigiJet/DigiFant Bentley section opened up, and check both air and engine temperature sensors for correct resistance. If you have a big start fail again with some time on your hands, you can pull a plug immediately after a start-fail and see if it is wet fuelishness or is it so gas vapor free that you can tell if it is a too much or too little fuel scenario.

The above of course comes with the prerequisite ignition system good, air hoses good, valve adjustment good, even compression test.
Colin

[Lanval]

Colin,

Thanks ~ one problem is of course, that it rarely fails when I'm just lounging around... I'm trying to go someplace! Laughing aside, I've wanted to do just that, and haven't had the time + associated failed start. I've also been riding my bike to work most days now... weight loss, economy/money, etc. Finally, I re-installed the house battery, and that seems to have added life to the system.

In any event, I'll try to see if I can create a time to try it and get a failed start. I drove for several days last week, and the dual battery + new starter could be described as "overly-enthusiastic". Starts like a snap of the fingers... for the moment. Watch and wait ~ first chance I get: check it out in more detail.

Now... for the leaky-leak. Lessee if I can get these pictures up...









and for fun, something that didn't get posted last year. If you've never installed a gas tank, Colin's yer man!

[Amskeptic]

Now... for the leaky-leak. Lessee if I can get these pictures up...


If you've never installed a gas tank, Colin's yer man!
ColinandNewTank.jpg[/img

Frightful photo . . . that.


. . . that drip.
Colin

[Lanval]

Unfortunately, I'm reasonably certain that the drip on the right in the last photo can't be attributed to the other drip which is clearly coming from the intake pipe. It is what it is...

ML

[Amskeptic]

Unfortunately, I'm reasonably certain that the drip on the right in the last photo can't be attributed to the other drip which is clearly coming from the intake pipe. It is what it is...

ML

Pinch off coolant hoses. Drain r/s head. Allow to "dry".
Remove each head bolt one at a time, starting in the middle and working your way out according to the final torque diagram. Hit each bolt washer with sealant, torque to spec. Don't dally. Whipitoff, seal, whipiton, torque.
One at a time. In sequence. Do it now before this leak decides it's boss. If leak continues, feel like pulling the head? Gasket kit and go. Quick. Family won't even notice.
Colin

[Lanval]

Just to be clear, you are saying that I do one bolt at a time according to the correct order. That means all of them remain tight except for the one I'm doing, right? I loosen one bolt, sealant, retighten to spec. Then next bolt, following the correct pattern.

Is that as you imagine it?

Does the head need to be drained for this?

Otherwise, if I drain the head at all, why not just do the gasket seal anyway?

****

Also, if I drain the head, any reason not to go whole hog and try to seal that pipe too? Or does that demand a full drain?

Michael L

[Amskeptic]

Just to be clear, you are saying that I do one bolt at a time according to the correct order. That means all of them remain tight except for the one I'm doing, right? I loosen one bolt, sealant, retighten to spec. Then next bolt, following the correct pattern.

Is that as you imagine it?

Does the head need to be drained for this?

Otherwise, if I drain the head at all, why not just do the gasket seal anyway?

****

Also, if I drain the head, any reason not to go whole hog and try to seal that pipe too? Or does that demand a full drain?

Michael L

Sorry I'm late. One bolt at a time, as written.

One at a time. In sequence.

You do this instead of pulling the head because the *cause* of the leak may be that the head bolt torque has dropped after several heating/cooling cycles. Fix the cause. A new head seal may leak after several heat/cool cycles too. Let's see if a re-torque takes care of it AND we want the heads properly torqued ANYWAY, so do the other side too if yours are low. Drain the heads, yes. Save the coolant in the rest of the system by pinching appropriate hoses.
Colin