Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vanagons

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sgkent
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Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vanagons

Post by sgkent » Tue Oct 13, 2015 3:59 pm

Magnaflow is going to need some 1975 - 1979 smog legal T4 engine buses in Santa Margarita (near Mission Viejo) Orange County sometime soon as they have put together an engineering team this morning to deal with the catalytic converter (or lack thereof issue). We need 75 - 78 stock, 79 Federal and 79 California stock buses, and hopefully some Vanagons of 1980 - 1982 air cooled. Please start putting the feelers out folks. PM me if you want to make yourself available for this - I do not have a date(s) yet. Stock heater boxes and exhausts only for now. We can't cover every possible alteration if yours is modified. We don't yet know if they will need just to see a couple and take measurements, or actually dry fit some cat back exhausts.

If you have a smog cert coming up in the next year or so, this may be an opportunity to have a system available if you need one then. If we fail to address this issue that keeps repeating now since 2009 when the new CARB II law went into effect, there will come a time when we can no longer license these buses in California. PM me and I will start a list of possible candidates. If you know some air cooled stock exhaust vanagons, please point them to this thread. Thank You .

note: they could pull the plug on this and delist their universal VW Transporter/Westy cats, but if they do, that is Ok too because right now if you are told you need a converter, CARB will tell you to stuff an 18" long converter into a 12" spot. October 2015 - Steve
TBone208 wrote: "You ppl are such windbags. Go use your crystal ball to get rich & predict something meaningful. Nobody knows what's going to happen. How are we supposed to take ppl who don't know the definition of a recession & "woman" seriously?"

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Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vanagons

Post by SlowLane » Tue Oct 13, 2015 5:30 pm

I'm not really free to toodle on down to SoCal with my '81 at short notice (and it's currently CARB-legal but non-stock in any event) , but I can provide them with a perfect-factory-fit Emico catalytic converter from which they can take measurements (this is for a Federal Vanagon with the cat in-line with the muffler across the back of the motor).

Lyle
'81 Canadian Westfalia (2.0L, manual), now Californiated

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Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vanagons

Post by Amskeptic » Wed Oct 14, 2015 7:54 am

sgkent wrote:Magnaflow is going to need some 1975 - 1979 smog legal T4 engine buses in Santa Margarita (near Mission Viejo) Orange County sometime soon as they have put together an engineering team this morning to deal with the catalytic converter (or lack thereof issue). Steve
Why can't they just obtain a used factory catalytic converter and have the dimensions right there in front of them?
Colin
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Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vanagons

Post by sgkent » Sat Oct 17, 2015 1:16 pm

Lyle offered them his Emico in June but they weren't interested. With ARB now comparing the EO on cats made after 2009 to their database, we are seeing buses and vanagons that pass get a flunk because the EO is for the wrong car. Let's say that a Fox cat fits a bus and it has an EO but it is for a passenger car instead of a truck - they flunk the car on smog and say "we flunked another that was illegal." Lyle tried to get a referee to clear it - but the ref said no. Then BAR and CARB say - our database shows these models all fit a bus and vanagon, use one of them. One by one we've demonstrated they either don't fit or the manufacturer no longer makes them due to lack of sales. Magnaflow is the only one left who shows cats that fit. They are weld in 18" long units that need to fit in a 12" space. Lyle approached them in June about changing the mount on their 12" long round unit that was listed and they declined and instead proposed the universal fit ones. My best guess is that they will go one of two ways on this - either walk away and tell CARB that their models don't fit, or they will make a complete cat back system with one of their universal ones that does fit but requires the muffler be changed too. I doubt if they will make a 50 state certified unit that fits like the original because it would not be cost effective to compete with the 48 state ones already out there. Besides, Magnaflow sells performance and sound. If they make one it will be an upgrade over the stock system. I should know more next week.
TBone208 wrote: "You ppl are such windbags. Go use your crystal ball to get rich & predict something meaningful. Nobody knows what's going to happen. How are we supposed to take ppl who don't know the definition of a recession & "woman" seriously?"

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Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vanagons

Post by airkooledchris » Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:25 pm

sgkent wrote:Magnaflow sells performance and sound. If they make one it will be an upgrade over the stock system. I should know more next week.
That's actually pretty cool, if it comes to that. It would be nice to see a Magnaflow muffler and CAT built specifically for the late model baywindow bus.
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Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vanagons

Post by asiab3 » Sat Oct 17, 2015 8:49 pm

I think it would be cooler to have a quiet, economical, well-fitting exhaust with good heat. The engineering has already been done for us....

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Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vanagons

Post by SlowLane » Sun Oct 18, 2015 12:38 am

sgkent wrote: Lyle approached them in June about changing the mount on their 12" long round unit that was listed and they declined and instead proposed the universal fit ones.
And what I ended up doing was taking the "Direct-fit" Magnaflow 339916 cat to a local muffler guy, who ended up converting it into a "universal-fit" by hacking the flange off the front of it so he could weld it to the cat bypass pipe I had on there from Canada. That was the only way we could get it to clear the crossover pipe. Then it was a matter of finding a muffler that would fit the remaining space.

I was fortunate in a way because the Federal versions, where the cat is in-line with the muffler, have a lot more room to play with than the California versions where the cat is scrunched up beside the left-side heat exchanger. I don't envy anyone trying to find a solution for that. Best of luck, Steve.
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Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vanagons

Post by sgkent » Mon Oct 19, 2015 9:24 am

SlowLane wrote:
sgkent wrote: Lyle approached them in June about changing the mount on their 12" long round unit that was listed and they declined and instead proposed the universal fit ones.
And what I ended up doing was taking the "Direct-fit" Magnaflow 339916 cat to a local muffler guy, who ended up converting it into a "universal-fit" by hacking the flange off the front of it so he could weld it to the cat bypass pipe I had on there from Canada. That was the only way we could get it to clear the crossover pipe. Then it was a matter of finding a muffler that would fit the remaining space.

I was fortunate in a way because the Federal versions, where the cat is in-line with the muffler, have a lot more room to play with than the California versions where the cat is scrunched up beside the left-side heat exchanger. I don't envy anyone trying to find a solution for that. Best of luck, Steve.
Thanks - it is quite a challenge. FWIW - the 339916 is no longer approved in California. Robbie - it does no good for most people to use a factory system. First, they are NLA except for a few left in Europe for about $600. Add a muffler and the special clamp, the cost is about $800 cat back. If the elbow has to be replaced make it a clear $1000 job. It is illegal to buy and sell used catalytic converters in California. That complicates it even more. CARB has complete say on what can be installed, and nothing that they currently have approved fits. They are almost immune to public pressure from a small group like us. Hopefully Magnaflow will have something to say today or tomorrow.
TBone208 wrote: "You ppl are such windbags. Go use your crystal ball to get rich & predict something meaningful. Nobody knows what's going to happen. How are we supposed to take ppl who don't know the definition of a recession & "woman" seriously?"

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Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vanagons

Post by SlowLane » Mon Oct 19, 2015 11:38 am

Merlin wrote:FWIW - the 339916 is no longer approved in California.
Can I ask where you got that information?

The current pre-OBD list available from ARB (last updated 4/10/2015) shows that the Magnaflow 339000 series of converters is still allowable for T-1 class applications under E.O. D-193-105, as is the earlier version of that series, numbered 39000, under D-193-85. Neither of these Executive Orders has been withdrawn or rescinded.

Update: Ah, I think I see. You must be using ARB's new-fangled Cataylitic Converter database, which only shows four Universal options for the late-model buses, all Magnaflow products, differing only in inlet and outlet pipe diameters. The 339003 and 339004 cats both have 2" pipes, the 339005 has 2.25" pipes, and the 339006 has 2.5" pipes. I have no idea why anyone would need to use the '005 or '006 sizes on one of our vehicles.

But if you enter a search for a 1980-1983 Vanagon, you'll get a lot more listings, basically every one covered by the pre-OBD list I linked to above, including the 339916 and 39916, still touted as a Direct Fit . Given that a cat which works for an aircooled Vanagon ought to work for a late bus, I suspect that ARB hasn't done a very good job of completing their database for the late bays. Maybe tickle ARB on that account? Heck, I just noticed that the ARB database doesn't even let you select a Transporter for 1975 or 1976. Yup, some more work needed there.
Add a muffler and the special clamp, the cost is about $800 cat back.
If I understand the notion of a "cat-back" system, it should be everything downstream from the catalytic converter, no? Well, on a California '79 - 83 model, that would include the left-side heat exchanger as well as the muffler and a couple of bent bits of pipe.
'81 Canadian Westfalia (2.0L, manual), now Californiated

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Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vanagons

Post by sgkent » Mon Oct 19, 2015 12:19 pm

go to the arb site, punch in your make, model and year. It will tell you which ones are currently approved and suggested for your make and year.

There are lots of rules on these cats including how they can be modified. The position of the base and O2 sensors has to be within a certain distance of stock as I recall. That is part of the problem - the rules are like the ones CHP enforces - it is impossible to drive five miles without breaking some rule. You need to understand that the only reason I got involved in this is because people wrote me about being flunked on smog, and also by the referee.

One of those "direct-fit" were offered to Magnaflow in June along with an Emico that actually fit, and a crosspipe so the Magnaflow could be modified so it would fit. Since then, both ARB and Magnaflow are aware that the direct fit unit does not direct fit because there is no offset - and since then they are offering the 4 universal ones in the same series as their VW solution. Regardless - any unit that had an EO is grandfathered if the EO was valid at the time it was installed.

But if you cut the end off the elbow and the flange you may have changed the dimensions enough that if they ever enforce that part of the law it could bite you.
TBone208 wrote: "You ppl are such windbags. Go use your crystal ball to get rich & predict something meaningful. Nobody knows what's going to happen. How are we supposed to take ppl who don't know the definition of a recession & "woman" seriously?"

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Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vanagons

Post by SlowLane » Mon Oct 19, 2015 12:33 pm

sgkent wrote:go to the arb site, punch in your make, model and year. It will tell you which ones are currently approved and suggested for your make and year.
Yeah, I did. See my comments above. Looks to me like the database hasn't been completed for '75 - '79 Transporters. The list is far more compleat for aircooled Vanagons.
sgkent wrote:One of those "direct-fit" were offered to Magnaflow in June along with an Emico that actually fit, and a crosspipe so the Magnaflow could be modified so it would fit.
Yup, it was me who had offered. :wink:
Offer still stands if you want to borrow my Emico for Magnaflow to measure. Just let me know. It'll have to go without the crossover pipe, because I'm still using that.
sgkent wrote:But if you cut the end off the elbow and the flange you may have changed the dimensions enough that if they ever enforce that part of the law it could bite you.
I'm going to trust that the referee knew his job well enough to make the call on whether my installation was acceptable.

Best regards,
Lyle
'81 Canadian Westfalia (2.0L, manual), now Californiated

"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."
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Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vanagons

Post by sgkent » Mon Oct 19, 2015 12:37 pm

The rules are really specific and right now CARB, BAR and the Referees enforce which of them they want to. I don't wish to deal with this frustration any more. My oem cat predates the law and if it ever fails I have a NOS genuine VW one that is exempt. Lyle you are on your own.
TBone208 wrote: "You ppl are such windbags. Go use your crystal ball to get rich & predict something meaningful. Nobody knows what's going to happen. How are we supposed to take ppl who don't know the definition of a recession & "woman" seriously?"

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Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vanagons

Post by SlowLane » Mon Oct 19, 2015 12:53 pm

sgkent wrote:Lyle you are on your own.
Umm, yeah, that's been understood since the beginning of our correspondence. I've never expected you to fix my problem for me. I was eventually able to arrive at a solution acceptable to the referee, pretty much on my own, but with valuable advice from you and others, and have been enjoying driving my California legal Westy since July.

I do appreciate all the effort you've gone to for the community on this subject. Sorry if I pissed you off.
sgkent wrote: don't wish to deal with this frustration any more.
Sorry, I wasn't trying to add to your frustration. Was just trying to contribute. Obviously I missed the mark.

Lyle
'81 Canadian Westfalia (2.0L, manual), now Californiated

"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance."
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Re: Magnaflow Orange Co. CA 76 - 79 Buses & 80 - 82 Vanagons

Post by sgkent » Mon Oct 19, 2015 2:47 pm

Lyle, did you ever think about the bus owners you came to for help? Considerable time was spent trying to find a solution for you, so you were never alone.

The models you are touting do not cover a VW bay. I also notice that the Oxygen Sensor cannot be moved ANY based on how that EO is written. Didn't you have some kind a difficulty with the Referee telling you that you needed an O2 sensor when you did not? What if he'd said - "ok, you moved the (not needed but he didn't care) O2 sensor. No it won't work because of that."

D-193-85 T1 http://arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermkt/devic ... 193-85.pdf
D-193-105 T1 http://arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermkt/devic ... 93-105.pdf

FYI the D-193-109 PC-1 based on the same series core is already rescinded which is how Magnaflow does things. They rescind and update every few years based on what is available to them.

I really haven't the desire to fight ARB, Magnaflow and thick headed bay and Vanagon owners. I wish you and everyone else the best. I have nothing else to add to this matter.
TBone208 wrote: "You ppl are such windbags. Go use your crystal ball to get rich & predict something meaningful. Nobody knows what's going to happen. How are we supposed to take ppl who don't know the definition of a recession & "woman" seriously?"

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