What speeds do you maintain climbing hills w/a 1600 engine

[wcfvw69]

I'm curious to hear what everyone is able to achieve in speeds while climbing grades or mountains in their bus's with a stock 1600 engine or a 1776 engine with single carb.

I posted a thread on The Samba about my first camping trip in my 70' Westphalia camper. I was loaded with three adults and the camping gear to support them in my 1970 Westphalia. The engine is a 1776 dual port with stock everything except a German 009 distributor and a Brosal 30/31 carb (be nice Colin). I'm running a fresh rebuilt 002 transmission.

I climbed out of Phoenix which is 2000' to 7200' just S. of Flagstaff thru Payson on the beeline HWY. On some of the steeper grades, I was barely able to maintain 40mph and as I passed 5000', I was down to 30-35 in 2nd gear rolling up some steep grades. When I got to the 7200' area, the bus was running fine, it just "felt" like it was grossly underpowered, like the mechanical distributor wasn't advancing or I was running on 3 cylinders. I got to camp and the engine was purring like a kitten at 7200'. I threw on my timing light and the distributor was working perfect with the timing advancing to 30* all in.

Now, this is my first time in a bay bus on a long trip climbing grades so it may be simply my newbness. lol Robbie posted on The Samba w/his results in the same area. I'd love to hear what others are able to achieve in speeds w/their stock engine bus's today or in the past.

I'm also interested to hear what Colin does in his 70?

Thanks- :)

[sped372]

I'd be nervous with that 009 on there since you'll be pulling the same advance on a hillclimb or flat or anywhere... the stock dizzy is all-vac advance so it can drop back to 0 degrees when you really start pushing it up a hill. To answer your question, though, it doesn't take much of an incline to be forced to drop into third even near sea level. Once you're at higher altitudes and with more severe grades you'll easily be into second gear, that's just the way it goes with the little sewing machine back there pushing you around. :0)

[dingo]

Now thjs is a question close to my heart...high altitudes and steep grades ! Ive often wished for a 2.5 gear as neither 2nd or 3rd seem to be truly settled...maybe this is due to my advance being misplaced...but my gut feeling is that its all ab out RPMs in a type 1 engine. Does one readjust timing to suit hi9gh altitude or merely a/f mixture ? and if so, how to do this....?

[sped372]

Per Colin's advice when we headed out west a few years back, you can bump your timing ahead a bit to compensate if it's a temporary thing but you'd better bring it back to the correct setting when you come down out of the hills.

[hambone]

Climbing hiway grades, 35-40 MPH all day in 3rd fully loaded whathaveyou. 1600 Singleport. Elevation doesn't seem to matter, I was up at Crater Lake pulling the same crap. Keep those revs up but not crazy-like.
I have been doing this for 12 years with a happy bus.

[JLT]

My rule of thumb (or foot) is to always have the pedal some distance off the floor, preferably at a speed where I could accelerate. If that means going up a hill at 35, or 15, so be it.

I used to keep that pedal planted as long as I could until the engine started to lug, at the extreme bottom end of the gear range. I think that was why I kept having to replace the heads every 25K miles or so. Now I say, "What's the hurry? Climbs up mountain roads are usually pretty scenic, so sit back and enjoy the ride."

[wcfvw69]

Thanks for the replies everyone. I've come to the conclusion that the bus and it's engine are fine. I drove it yesterday on a few errands and it fired right up, idled beautifully and ran great around town doing errands. Of course, I was driving it alone and it was fully unloaded.

The speed of climbing grades/mountains isn't a concern for me what so ever. Hell, we all know time goes by too fast as it is. I'm still such a newbie w/bus's and this was my first trip, fully loaded up while traveling over some steep mountains. I wanted other veterans experiences to see what I experienced was normal. I've come to the conclusion that it is.

I have Colin scheduled for a visit in August and I look forward to his views on this bus's performance.

[Marya70Riviera]

I've been wondering about this too. Haven't done it yet but hopefully will soon. Just on hills in town it's like the little engine that could (makes me nervous)! Good to know it's just how it goes with an old, fully-loaded bus!

[asiab3]

On one's first big trip in a bus, it's easy to climb a steep hill at 40 in third gear and feel like you're going to destroy the thing. Tens of thousands of miles later…………… ;)
Robbie

[Mulcheese]

I know that I don't have a 1600 but a 2000 but I also have a Vanagon which is heavier so the comparison is justified. I also maintain a decent RPM's and don't concentrate on speed. This usually occurs in 3rd, sometimes down to 2nd. When I hit mtns I get it in my mind that we are not in a hurry so all is good. Take your time, keep decent RPM's to cool engine, and sit back and enjoy the mountains. Push it and the van don't like it!

[Amskeptic]

I'm curious to hear what everyone is able to achieve in speeds while climbing grades or mountains in their bus's with a stock 1600 engine or a 1776 engine with single carb.

It is up to your engine. Some engines are poorly balanced, stay out of hideous vibration periods. Some engines have performance cams that need you to be within the cam's working range, so you might have to hold rpms up near 4,000-4,500, but I sure hope your engine is balanced and properly assembled.

On very hot days, I have found that the Type 1 engine specifically calls for a downshift **even if it can maintain 4th gear** if the CHTS get too high. Because its fan is 1.6 X engine rpm, you actually do get additional cooling with a downshift. You will be electing to go 5-10 mph slower as a result of this decision to shift. Your engine thanks you. The Type 4 engines, you can keep in 4th if they are able to maintain 4th gear appropriate speeds.

Chloe's stock 1600 has a generator/fan imbalance that I stay out of when possible, so I limit my revs to where it is happiest, third gear pulls can go all day at 3,400-3,600 rpm, cruising down the highway, all day at 3,400-3,600 rpm, steeper hills, 2nd gear at 3,400-3,600 rpm. The important thing is to stay within the engine's happy place for whatever gear you happen to be in. Some people develop a habit of thrashing the engine to get back up to speed as quickly as possible because they are ashamed, embarrassed, mortified, to be on the nation's highways at less than typical speeds. Pah
Colin

[wcfvw69]

I'm curious to hear what everyone is able to achieve in speeds while climbing grades or mountains in their bus's with a stock 1600 engine or a 1776 engine with single carb.

It is up to your engine. Some engines are poorly balanced, stay out of hideous vibration periods. Some engines have performance cams that need you to be within the cam's working range, so you might have to hold rpms up near 4,000-4,500, but I sure hope your engine is balanced and properly assembled.

On very hot days, I have found that the Type 1 engine specifically calls for a downshift **even if it can maintain 4th gear** if the CHTS get too high. Because its fan is 1.6 X engine rpm, you actually do get additional cooling with a downshift. You will be electing to go 5-10 mph slower as a result of this decision to shift. Your engine thanks you. The Type 4 engines, you can keep in 4th if they are able to maintain 4th gear appropriate speeds.

Chloe's stock 1600 has a generator/fan imbalance that I stay out of when possible, so I limit my revs to where it is happiest, third gear pulls can go all day at 3,400-3,600 rpm, cruising down the highway, all day at 3,400-3,600 rpm, steeper hills, 2nd gear at 3,400-3,600 rpm. The important thing is to stay within the engine's happy place for whatever gear you happen to be in. Some people develop a habit of thrashing the engine to get back up to speed as quickly as possible because they are ashamed, embarrassed, mortified, to be on the nation's highways at less than typical speeds. Pah
Colin

Thanks for your feedback Colin.

I did quite a bit of reading on some forums when I returned home from this trip. One contributor who has decades of VW experience and who's also very knowledgeable, stated in a thread that his VW felt like it lost 40% of it's power when he was above 7000' while it was jetted for around 1000'. That's what this buses engine felt like. It ran fine at that high altitude, it just "felt" lethargic to say the least.

Many posts suggested to drop the main jet down from say a 125 to a 120 to help with the too rich condition if you're staying at that altitude for any length of time as well as advancing the timing. So, I've come to the conclusion that what I experienced was normal. I don't mind the slow speeds and am a courteous driver who uses pull outs to allow those to speed through life at ever greater speeds.

[dingo]

so you have a 30/31 feeding a dual port 1776...? I just pulled one from the pile and contemplated using it to replace the throttle-worn 34pict on a 1600 dual. I was wondering if the smaller venturi and smaller jets would be sufficient...but obviously in your case, it does. Ill have to give it a whirl tommorow

[ruckman101]

Like JLT, I like to keep some pedal room. My '62 Ghia w/1200cc engine had to climb many a hill in third, at 45 mph. But I just can't do it in a bus, dual or single port engine. I do 40 for the long climbs. I do give fourth a go until it becomes obvious it ain't happening, usually at 45, down to third.

neal

[wcfvw69]

so you have a 30/31 feeding a dual port 1776...? I just pulled one from the pile and contemplated using it to replace the throttle-worn 34pict on a 1600 dual. I was wondering if the smaller venturi and smaller jets would be sufficient...but obviously in your case, it does. Ill have to give it a whirl tommorow

I've had luck with the 30/31 carb on a few different stock engines. It plays well with the 205k and 205T distributors as well as the 009 that's in my bus.

Ideally, I will get a overhauled/rebuilt and rebushed 34-3 solex from Volksbiz someday. I then will have to change the distributor to a SVDA distributor as well.

This bus runs very smooth with the 30/31 and German, Bosch 009. It's as smooth as my two bone stock bugs that are running rebuilt re-bushed original carbs and rebuilt original distributors.

I just don't feel compelled to spend $500 bucks for both items right now when it runs fine. :)