Nick of time?

[misszora]

Hello all!

So, MZ's engine is out. Hal (Tristessa) & Michael (Kubelwagon) were instrumental.

The issue I was having was lost power. It wasn't all of a sudden so it took a couple trips to the mechanic and a few hours of diagnostic assistance with Stephan (Gypsie) and of course via Colin on the forum. There was a confirmed leak around #1's exhaust valve and then the compression went from 125 to 110 to 90. Yikes! I stopped driving her and started the plea for engine dropping assistance.

Hal came by last week to help me set up my temporary garage and while I was arranging the pieces he decided it was time MZ's old seats came out since I had replacement seats. The driver seat had not moved in the 16+ years I've owned the bus and the springs were poking through. dtrumbo had sent me new padding years ago but I couldn't get the seats out to put the new padding in! So if anyone needs seat padding let me know. I would love to pay that forward.

Anyway, we got MZ up on ramps and ready to go for the following weekend. I pulled parts, labeled wiring and took pictures during the week. My camera decided not to give up the pictures so I ordered a card reader. I'll be able to share those pictures when it arrives.



Taking the roof rack off so MZ can fit under the carport.



Had to put on my dusty Burning Man 6' platform boots to I could reach the roof rack.



Laying out parts for the carport.



Hal tackling the stubborn driver seat.



The seat moved forward for the first time in over a decade. Grease, hammer, leverage with 2x4 and a lot of wiggling. woo hoo!





It's out!



Both are out!



New one going in.



New, comfortable seats! They are mismatched though - I don't care. I had two beige, cloth Vanagon seats and Hal gave me a black vinyl Vanagon seat a few years back. The black one worked with the passenger side configuration. It's one of those fold and lift seats. The other Vanagon seat has sliders. So, I have an extra Vanagon seat if anyone is interested.



Carport assembly.





Tucked in.





I bought a new engine stand (on sale with a 20% discount! thank you Hal!) and swapped it with the stand Michael was using. It's the stand I used for MZ's rebuild. It has an extra set of legs welded to the frame for stability.



Bumper off.

Michael came earlier in the day on Saturday and we continued to pull of parts and ready the engine for removal. I had to go buy some 4x8 wood to fill the gap between the ATV jack and the engine. If anyone needs a block or two of that, let me know. They only sell it in 8' sections. I have several pieces in 18" chunks and two in 12" pieces.



My cat, Boo, is really into VWs.







She likes the new bug, too.



Hal came by in the afternoon and we finished disconnecting/unbolting/moving everything else that was in the way. Hal & Michael did the heavy shaking & shimmying to get the engine separated from the transmission and clear of the engine compartment. The three of us lifted it onto the stand and started pulling parts off.







We looked at the cylinder heads as soon as we could get them off and it appears that, especially at #1, the valve seats were indeed beginning to drop but hadn't succeeded. Yay!!!





I'll have better pictures later.

On further inspection, it looks like I may have to replace the main seal but with the engine already out, no biggie.

Just so you know, I show gratitude to folks who help me with homemade banana bread, bacon and mimosas (if you are so inclined) for the earlier shift and pizza and beer in the afternoon.

[misszora]

So the guy I had hoped would be able to rebuild the heads doesn't have the equipment yet to do Type 2 and recommends I ship them to Brothers.

http://www.brothersvwmachineshop.com/machine.htm

I want these heads as good as new so I was curious as to what all needs to be done.
Three angle valve job, new seats, new guides...what else?

I don't know for sure if I'll send them there but I want to have an idea of what to expect.

thanks!

[Amskeptic]

So the guy I had hoped would be able to rebuild the heads doesn't have the equipment yet to do Type 2 and recommends I ship them to Brothers.

http://www.brothersvwmachineshop.com/machine.htm

I want these heads as good as new so I was curious as to what all needs to be done.
Three angle valve job, new seats, new guides...what else?

I don't know for sure if I'll send them there but I want to have an idea of what to expect.

thanks!

What is the history on these heads? How many miles since they were first put on?
Colin

[misszora]

They were newish from the bus engine Hal & I salvaged according to the original owner. No paperwork from his purchase, naturally. When I had the miscellaneous parts, core and heads in the machine shop (A-1, formerly Dan Hall's), one of the valve seats & guides was replaced but the paperwork doesn't indicate which one. dang.

I put the heads in MZ at (1)17,100 and her odometer reads (1)40,050. 22,950 miles since installation over 3 years ago. Fewer than MZ's original heads for sure.

[Amskeptic]

They were newish from the bus engine Hal & I salvaged according to the original owner. No paperwork from his purchase, naturally. When I had the miscellaneous parts, core and heads in the machine shop (A-1, formerly Dan Hall's), one of the valve seats & guides was replaced but the paperwork doesn't indicate which one. dang.

I put the heads in MZ at (1)17,100 and her odometer reads (1)40,050. 22,950 miles since installation over 3 years ago. Fewer than MZ's original heads for sure.

So we do not know where in their service life they actually are. I do not know if you had a vacuum leak, overheat event, did you?
If the seats have receded > actual movement of the steel seat into the head aluminum, vs gone soft > where the steel seat is still firmly in place in the aluminum where it was when it left the factory, but the valve/seating surface has worn down ( like they did with my Squareback and Chloe), you should find replacement heads. If you would like to set the service life to "0", you need to know that the replacement heads have new guides, stable seats that have been ground specifically to these guides, and fresh exhaust valves, new keepers, and properly analyzed springs and retainers. I personally still prefer the quality of the original valve springs if they check out as far as force and height (168 lbs force at blahblahblah height)

I am running a pair of unknown mud-caked used heads bought off a swap meet trailer in Yuma AZ in October 2011 for $80.00. I have driven the snot out of these poor heads through two itineraries around the country, we're at 48,000 miles closer to whatever their end date is. I do not know a thing about their prior lives. I do know, paradoxically enough, that I trust them with my life because they are all original and the seats are as solid as the day they left the factory. The heads that came with Mike's rebuilt engine had been machined at Dan Hall's I believe, well, I had to replace the too-small exhaust valves and I had to replace the badly damaged seats. They are now "perfect" and waiting for me to install them. Yet, I still trust these tired old mutts more. They are my friends now, you know? Tired old mutts, stray cats . . . .
Colin

[misszora]

I'm worried that replacement heads are way out of my price range. My gut is telling me that I may have lucked out with the heads I have and can save them with new hardware. [-o<

[Amskeptic]

I'm worried that replacement heads are way out of my price range. My gut is telling me that I may have lucked out with the heads I have and can save them with new hardware. [-o<

CAUTION: If the seats have moved in the heads, either welding and machining to retain your current valve seat diameter, OR a step up to larger valves is called for. If anyone identifies that the seats have actually moved in the aluminum, they best repeat to you exactly what I said up above.
Colin

[misszora]

If I go with Clackamas Auto Parts in Oregon City, the machinist will be Troy from A-1/Dan Hall's.
So here's my question: What changes on the rest of the engine when I go up to larger valves?

I have MZ's original (to me) heads out at Mike Boell's place, also in Oregon City. Tempted to go grab those and bring both sets in to see which is in better condition.

[Amskeptic]

If I go with Clackamas Auto Parts in Oregon City, the machinist will be Troy from A-1/Dan Hall's.
So here's my question: What changes on the rest of the engine when I go up to larger valves?

I have MZ's original (to me) heads out at Mike Boell's place, also in Oregon City. Tempted to go grab those and bring both sets in to see which is in better condition.

I'd be tempted to do exactly that as well. Larger valves will not be readily noticeably in street driving.
Colin

[misszora]

Coming back from a week of challenges. The weather, a severe cold that knocked me on my ass, and making the decision to drive 300 miles on cold meds to buy a set of heads that Hambone found on Craigslist.

I spent two mornings that should have been for resting battling the ridiculous 55+mph winds that tried to move my borrowed Costco carport into my neighbor's yard. I used every piece of rope I had, bought extra 5 gallon buckets to fill with water and add anchor weight, filled up every cooler & every water jug I had and it still kept lifting. Finally scored a boat anchor and 125ft of boat rope to finally get that thing stable. Not fun.



Water for weight in everything I could find.







Actual boat anchor.



Through the fence and on to my hand railing.



Not going anywhere.

While waiting for the verdict from Bearing Services on my heads, Hambone sent me a late night email with a link to Type 4 VW heads up in Puyallup, WA. I wasn't sure if I should spend the money if I didn't know their story. I sent Hal the parts number and he said go for it so I emailed the fella and arranged to grab them. Had to borrow a neighbor's car because the bug is now having similar issues - possibly damaged valves, more on that later - and drove up. I met a fellow VW friend in Lacey, WA and we drove together to get the heads. The guy who was selling them was very nice and said they had come with a '75 bus he had purchased but had since sold. The previous owner had them as an extra set. They looked brand new.

We took them to Olympia Auto Haus in Olympia and had them checked them for leaks. Good to go!!! They said it didn't look like the heads had even been in an engine yet but they had definitely had new parts. They recommended that I put on lash caps because the metal is harder than the valve's metal and they provide a larger area for rockers to hit. They said I would have to recalculate the rocker arm geometry. They also said I could put in stainless steel valves or leave the current valves in place and keep the rocker geometry as is. So, as usual, it isn't just a simple solution but at least these heads are wonderful.













The verdict from Bearing Services was that MZ's heads were going to require extensive repair. #1 exhaust valve seat had come completely off. There is a long crack at #2 that followed the casting seam all the way around. All seats and guides would have to be redone.



Valve seat came off.



Crack follows the casting.

So now, do I put on lash caps and recalculate the rocker arm geometry for the new (to me) heads?
Do I spend the money and put in stainless steel valves even though I have brand new valves and what appear to be new guides?

Just started cleaning engine parts today. I've been so weak from the cold. Luckily the sun is cooperating.

[hambone]

Nice heads, I am awesome. I was actually looking for an early bay rear camper cushion, hen's teeth those suckers are.
And I will be seeing YOU in a couple days, engines scattered in pieces all over the place around here.
I feel like crap too, but we'll be fine in a couple of days.
(Lash caps? I don't think those are crucial....10 cents?)

[Amskeptic]

Coming back from a week of challenges.
They recommended that I put on lash caps because the metal is harder than the valve's metal and they provide a larger area for rockers to hit. They said I would have to recalculate the rocker arm geometry. They also said I could put in stainless steel valves or leave the current valves in place and keep the rocker geometry as is.

So now, do I put on lash caps and recalculate the rocker arm geometry for the new (to me) heads?
Do I spend the money and put in stainless steel valves even though I have brand new valves and what appear to be new guides?

Nice score. I would keep the heads as they are.
Who said that replacement stainless steel valves are better than the valves that are in these heads?
Do we somehow know that the valves in the heads are substandard?
Who said that lash caps would be "necessary" with the valves currently in these heads?
Are your valve adjuster screws replacements or are they original?
Replacement screws have been known to be too hard for valve stems.
If they are original screws, they can be lightly dressed and polished convex at their ends.

Is your engine solid lifter or hydraulic lifter-equipped?
We shall endeavor to keep your new heads happy and cool, shan't WE??
Do you have a Dakota Digital CHT gauge?
Highly recommended, MissValveReceder.
Make a nice notch in the #3 spark plug well to allow the terminal to nestle.
Colin

(I yelled at God for putting you through all that water and wind and rope and anchors.
"Dear God,
You really think You are so funny, don't You? I think You are mean.
Sincerely,
YouAlreadyKnowWhoIAm")

[Bleyseng]

Instead of lash caps spend the money on Porsche swivel feet adjusters as they don't mash the ends of the valve stems. You have to find a set of 1.7L rocker arms to go with them and grind off some of the rocker.

[SlowLane]

Instead of lash caps spend the money on Porsche swivel feet adjusters as they don't mash the ends of the valve stems. You have to find a set of 1.7L rocker arms to go with them and grind off some of the rocker.

Let's qualify that with: "If the engine has solid lifters (and of course, the proper camshaft and pushrods that go with solid lifters), then consider using Porsche swivel-feet adjusters instead of lash caps."
Using swivel-feet with hydraulic lifters is asking for trouble.

Also, my experience with replacement adjusters is that you really want to pay the exorbitant price to get OEM ones from a VW dealership, or be comfortable enough to heat-treat them yourself. I had one aftermarket set, purchased from a supposedly reputable engine builder, which had zero heat-treatment on the tips. They wore down after about 50 miles in the engine.

[misszora]

Nice score. I would keep the heads as they are.
Who said that replacement stainless steel valves are better than the valves that are in these heads?
Do we somehow know that the valves in the heads are substandard?
Who said that lash caps would be "necessary" with the valves currently in these heads?
Are your valve adjuster screws replacements or are they original?
Replacement screws have been known to be too hard for valve stems.
If they are original screws, they can be lightly dressed and polished convex at their ends.

Is your engine solid lifter or hydraulic lifter-equipped?
We shall endeavor to keep your new heads happy and cool, shan't WE??
Do you have a Dakota Digital CHT gauge?
Highly recommended, MissValveReceder.
Make a nice notch in the #3 spark plug well to allow the terminal to nestle.
Colin

(I yelled at God for putting you through all that water and wind and rope and anchors.
"Dear God,
You really think You are so funny, don't You? I think You are mean.
Sincerely,
YouAlreadyKnowWhoIAm")

No one specifically said to replace the current valves with stainless steel. The stainless were mentioned in forums as the way to go if it was time to put new ones in. Mine look pretty darned nice I must say. They are brand spanking new and I don't think the heads have been in an engine yet.

Yes. I do have a cylinder head temp sensor and a gauge. Can't remember the brand, I'm pretty sure it is not digital. Since the engine is out, I believe I will put it in. I don't want to be a slave to the gauge but I sure would like to have these heads for more than three years. For all I know, the ones I put in from the salvaged bus were on their way out and gave me 3 years of joy for using them.

Solid lifters. Nice new ones from the rebuild in 2011/2012.
Oh, and as far as I know, valve adjuster screws are original.
The lash caps were an interesting idea. I just like the idea of protecting those teeny little valve ends.

One thing I did find was one of the wires that runs underneath the rockers had slipped and rubbed on a pushrod wearing it down in one spot. Do I need to replace just that one or all of them on that side? Or all four?



Um, ignore my hair wrapped around it. It didn't come out of the bus that way!

Since I did not get the job I thought I was going to get *grumble* I will have lots of time now to finish the project. I'm getting a little anxious about the engine being outside. I slathered the cylinder walls with a little motor oil and wrapped the engine up tight. We've had an unseasonably dry winter so I'm hoping for the best. Some day I might live somewhere with a garage. :)