No start - no click (still need help)

[aopisa]

Just had my IAC visit two days ago with Colin. I still owe a write up, but is was a very busy, greasy visit and we got a lot accomplished. The bus has been running super great.

My bus was running fine this morning. I just went to go pick up the kids from school. Bus started a little hard, ran rough for a few seconds and died. Now it will not start. The ALT and OIL lights come on. Headlights work, etc., but it will not start. No click, just silence.

Battery is reading 12.8V

Checked connections at the battery, coil and starter and all appear to be OK.

Tapped on started with hammer. No change.

I can jump the starter across the terminals and the bus will start, but it does not want to stay running for more than a few seconds.

I think it may be the ignition switch, but just don't want to go changing things without checking in first.

Colin helped me replace the alternator, but I think this is not related.

I just do not know where to go next and in what order to check things out.

Thanks.

[hambone]

It is often the male-female spade terminal on the starter...looks clean but doesn't make contact.
If not then it does sound like your ignition switch. Jiggling the key help at all? They do go bad...

[aopisa]

It is often the male-female spade terminal on the starter...looks clean but doesn't make contact.
If not then it does sound like your ignition switch. Jiggling the key help at all? They do go bad...

I got it started. I was thinking (and dreading) ignition switch.

I unplugged and reseated the connection to the VR and gave some of the other wires coming from the alternator a wiggle for good measure. It fired right up.

Idle was still low. I adjusteded it up a bit.

Multimeter shows 13.2V at idle and 13.8 under higher RPMs.

So, I am not sure if I did anything or if it was just one of those coincidental things that seems like a fix only to return later. Also not sure if I now have a faulty VR or the new alternator is not putting out what it should.

Thank you for your help.

[Boxcar]

Fear not the ignition switch! Just bring some vacuum line when its time and renew your wwsh plumbing too.

[Amskeptic]

Fear not the ignition switch! Just bring some vacuum line when its time and renew your wwsh plumbing too.

We need to write with great specificity here at the itinerant Air-Cooled forum.

Did the car not start because it just sat there mutely? Because it was turning over too slowly? Because it turned over fine, but would not fire?
Colin

[aopisa]

Just wanted to give everyone an update. I will be away for most of the weekend so, I will not have time to experiment.

Drove the bus over to the ex's just to see how it would perform. Rationale being that if it won't start at least it is not stranded somewhere. Drove fine. When I went to leave, it would not start.

-Went through all of the VR/ alternator wire wiggling as before. Nothing.
-Installed new VR. Nothing, but we don't even know if this POS works.
-Tapped on starter with hammer. Nothing.
-Inspected starter wiring. Small red/white wire from spade terminal heavily corroded and hanging by one copper strand.
-Pulled broken small red/white wire and went to get some tools to repair. Turned key for kicks and bus started. Low idle, wanted to stall,
-Would not let it stall. Got it idling fine drove home.
-Turned it off and back on. Then tried again, no go. Then it would start. Then it would not. Then it would twice in a row. Then I got sick of doing that and came in here to write this post.

When I turn the key to the on position the dash indicator lights come on, but I do not hear the fuel pump running.

So, what is the small red/white wire? I can't seem to find it online and I am terrible at reading the wiring diagram.

I just tried it again and it started right up. Then immediately it would not start for many minutes. After letting it sit for about 15 minutes it fired right up. This pattern seems to be repeatable. Let it sit for a few minutes and it starts with no problem. Shut it down and try again immediately and it will not start.

I know that unrelated issues that look like coincidences happen all the time. Still, I cannot help but think that it is more likely something I did when replacing the alternator on Tuesday.

[aopisa]

I hope this is not a breech of IAC ethics.

Colin has been helping me with this issue, but is now back on the road with a busy schedule. I need to resolve this issue as I have an engagement that requires traveling in the bus this weekend.

I replaced the starter with no observable change.

I cleaned the hot start relay contacts and got an improvement. When warm the bus may start or may not, but usually not. The cool down period seems shorter.

I need some clarification on Colin's last PM in order to proceed:

"Yes, I did not mention to remove hot start relay.

Yes, you may find that you have a perfectly wonderful spare starter now.

The hot start relay is only needed *after* the starter begins to do the hot day opossum game. A new starter should not have a hot start relay in the circuit."

Is it a typo? It seems like he meant to say "Yes, did I not mention to remove the hot start relay"

So, I need to remove the hot start relay. Is he inferring that the relay may still be interfering with my starting issue because it might be failing? It might be better now that the contacts are clean, but still weak? Shouldn't I install a new relay instead?

Thanks.

[yondermtn]

I'm just guessing here, but I think you're correct. The hot-start relay should not be needed with a new starter and removing or bypassing the relay would eliminate the possibility of the relay or its contacts causing the problem while at the same time not hurting the new starter's ability to do its job. Again, I'm guessing here.

[Amskeptic]

I'm just guessing here, but I think you're correct. The hot-start relay should not be needed with a new starter and removing or bypassing the relay would eliminate the possibility of the relay or its contacts causing the problem while at the same time not hurting the new starter's ability to do its job. Again, I'm guessing here.

And again, you are correct.

In electrical engineers' circles, the Bosch starter solenoid is not respected. It uses a "pull" winding that then switches to a "hold" winding. The windings are sensitive to heat and deterioration of the insulation. Once a Bosch solenoid is getting balky, the added voltage of the hot start relay is not only fine, but necessary. A hot start relay on new windings is a bit too much until its internal resistance begins to climb later in its life.
ColinSoI'veHeard