Running a bus at the Bonneville Salt Flats

[whc03grady]

Would it be dangerous in any specific way, either to one's self or to the vehicle, to run a Westy on the Salt for speed? I asked the lady who handles these questions for the Salt Flats Assn. and it basically boils down to, pay your fee, show up, follow the rules (see below), and hit the gas.

Who here would do it? Is there a risk of exploding a well-maintained bus if you tried?
*****************
(from here)

All drivers must be members of USFRA, possess a current valid state drivers license, and sign a loss damage waiver to participate. [no problem]

A maximum of six runs will be allowed per entry fee paid. [fine]

Each driver is a new entry. Each driver change must report to tech inspection separately, obtain a new vehicle number at registration, be a member of the USFRA and pay a separate entry and course prep fee. Driver change and new tech inspection may not occur until previous drivers runs are completed. [whatever]

The 130-mph format is specifically designed for currently licensed and insured, street legal cars/motorcycles. Requests for exemption from the Street Legal, Licensed & Insured requirement will require USFRA approval 45 days prior to the event. [okay]

To gain Membership into the 130-mph club, the vehicle must run the measured mile twice in the same event at a speed no less than 130 mph. The two runs are then averaged. Once a driver & car combination has achieved 130 Club Member status no more runs will be allowed at that meet. [fine, I don't want to be a member, I just want to go for a run]

An initial "licensing" pass at no more than 100 mph will be required to calibrate on board speed gauge equipment. i.e.; tachometer, speedometer, etc. [should be doable]

Maximum speed will be 139.999 mph - any vehicle exceeding 139.999 mph will forefit any of the unused 6 runs will not receive a timing slip. [not too worried about that]

If a disqualified vehicle wishes to run again, it must go back through tech inspection, Rookie Orientation and repurchase another 6 run pass. [see above]

The driver must wear a Snell 2005 (or later) approved, full-face helmet with full face shield, long sleeve shirt or jacket, long pants and closed shoes (no sandals). [I'll rustle it up]

Motorcycle riders must have full leathers, either one piece or full 360 degree zip together, leather boots and gloves, and a Snell 2005 (or later) approved, full-face helmet with full face shield. [n/a]

Open cars must have a 4-point roll bar. Convertiables, Targa tops, Removable Hardtops, and any aftermarket roof modifications are considered "open car". Rollbar must be above Drivers helmet. Factory T-tops must have OEM inserts in place when running. [n/a]

Cars must be equipped with OEM lap and shoulder (minimum 3 point) belts. If vehicle was manufactured prior to belts, 3 point seat belts (or better) will be added. [done]

Only gasoline, diesel, electric, fuels may be used - NO nitrous, alcohol or nitro-fueled vehicles will be allowed. [you got it]

Cars must have a metal battery tie down. Plastic wedges are not adequate. [hmmm...]

A Driveshaft retention loop is required in the front 25% of each section of drive shaft on rear-wheel cars where adequate retention and control of a broken driveline is not assured by body/frame design. [no driveshaft, no problem]

Dual throttle return springs are recommended. [???]

Vehicles must have H, W, V, or Z rated tires which are rated for speeds in excess of 130 mph. [might be an issue?]

Tires & wheels for all vehicles will have metal valve caps and metal valve stems are required. No tires wider than 10" will be allowed, unless the tires are OEM to the vehicle. (Narrow tires provide better traction and vehicle control on the Salt). [done]

Wheel covers will be positively attached or removed. [I'll go with removed]

A ground cover must be used under the vehicle in the pit area. Waste fluids will not be "dumped" they will be taken off the salt for disposal. Pit areas and general Salt will be kept neat and clean at all times
Rental Cars will not be allowed to run in the 130 MPH Club. [will a sheet of carboard do?]

Go Karts, Lawn Mowers, Dwarf Cars, Legends Cars, ATV’s, ATC's, Lawn Tractors and Snowmobiles are not allowed to run in the 130 MPH Club. Street Luge are banned starting in 2013. [gotcha]

INSPECTION:
-All vehicles must be currently licensed, registered, insured, and street legal in their respective state.
A Technical Inspection will be conducted by USFRA Official Inspectors to verify the acceptable condition of the engine, drive train, wheels, tires, fuel, steering, braking, and safety systems to an approved checklist. Every entry/re-entry requires a new Technical Inspection.
-Fees will not be charged for any inspection. No vehicle will be allowed to run if they do not fully comply with these Safety Rules. It is each entrants responsibility to fully understand and comply with these safety rules.
-Decisions of the inspectors and officials are final in the areas of safety assessment and requirements.
-USFRA/SCTA Competition Licenses will not be issued for 130 MPH Club Classe runs.

[whc03grady]

I should say, I'm talking a stock 2.0L bus here. No frills.

[Amskeptic]

Would it be dangerous in any specific way, either to one's self or to the vehicle, to run a Westy on the Salt for speed?

Please explain what you would like to learn/experience.
Colin

[whc03grady]

I would like to have the experience of doing a run on the Salt (you know, being 'part' of that whole thing, cheesy as that might sound), and furthermore, doing so in my family's 1974 VW Camper which I find funny in some way. The whole idea of running a bus, a camper no less, flat-out.

I'm not sure what I'd like to learn.

[bajaman72]

I would do it! Life experience for sure. I have always wanted to, but never considered a Bus.
I went to the Mojave Mile which was pretty cool. 40 horse engines are surprisingly fast!

[whc03grady]

The lady who I talked to and sent me the link to those rules said that the 130mph Club is basically the 'class' or whatever for normal, untrained people who want do a sanctioned run in the car they backed out of the garage that morning.

[Amskeptic]

The lady who I talked to and sent me the link to those rules said that the 130mph Club is basically the 'class' or whatever for normal, untrained people who want do a sanctioned run in the car they backed out of the garage that morning.

I'd like to open up the Lexus, but it exceeds the 139.99 mph limit, so what "class" am I supposed to aim for?
Colin
(have you ever opened 'er up on a long straight road in the middle of nowhere with a bus? slowly you feel terminal velocity gently prevent any additional acceleration, then a puff of headwind jams you down 5 mph)

[whc03grady]

I'd like to open up the Lexus, but it exceeds the 139.99 mph limit, so what "class" am I supposed to aim for?

Why, the 150 Club, of course.

(have you ever opened 'er up on a long straight road in the middle of nowhere with a bus? slowly you feel terminal velocity gently prevent any additional acceleration, then a puff of headwind jams you down 5 mph)

Yes, I had it cranked to about 83mph by the speedometer. I wound my old '70 Squareback ("Anne", r.i.p.) up just past 100mph once, as corroborated by my buddy's Jetta's speedometer. It had a little more to give, I could tell.

But the fastest I ever drove--well, maybe "drove" isn't the right word; manned?--Ludwig was probably the dumbest thing I've ever done in a bus, or any car, or in my life, for that matter. We were coming into Death Valley from the West on CA 190, over Townes Pass (4954 ft). The only daylight left was a smear of pink/orange. The road was utterly empty. I knew that after a couple wiggles near the top, the road was pretty much a straight drop down nearly 4000 feet into Stovepipe Wells. So after the wiggles at the top I put it in neutral and just let it fall.

Holy shit. I realized as it sailed past 80 that I'd just done a stupid thing. By the time it got past 90 I was the most white-knuckling mofo you've ever seen. Can't really run the brakes lest they overheat (I was judiciously tapping them, though), can't put it in 4th lest the clutch break into a million pieces upon release. I instinctively developed a mantra, pleasedon'tlettherebearockintheroadpleasedon'tlettherebearockintheroad. Those spaced elevation markers--4000 feet, 3000 feet, 2000 feet, 1000 feet--seemed to be coming alarmingly close together. The needle was well buried most of the way--at the fastest it was pointing straight down, 6 o'clock--until after about 11-miles of this insanity the grade finally started to ease. Never ever ever again.

I suspect putting Ludwig on the Flats would be somewhat less hair-raising.

[hambone]

Had a stock, tired '66 Bug up to 80 once. That's fast enough for me. The Bus, after 70 mph it just seems mean. 70 is tuff enough!
There should be a competition for long, uphill slogs. I'll bet I have most beat.

[airkooledchris]

But the fastest I ever drove--well, maybe "drove" isn't the right word; manned?--Ludwig was probably the dumbest thing I've ever done in a bus, or any car, or in my life, for that matter. We were coming into Death Valley from the West on CA 190, over Townes Pass (4954 ft). The only daylight left was a smear of pink/orange. The road was utterly empty. I knew that after a couple wiggles near the top, the road was pretty much a straight drop down nearly 4000 feet into Stovepipe Wells. So after the wiggles at the top I put it in neutral and just let it fall.

Holy shit. I realized as it sailed past 80 that I'd just done a stupid thing. By the time it got past 90 I was the most white-knuckling mofo you've ever seen. Can't really run the brakes lest they overheat (I was judiciously tapping them, though), can't put it in 4th lest the clutch break into a million pieces upon release. I instinctively developed a mantra, pleasedon'tlettherebearockintheroadpleasedon'tlettherebearockintheroad. Those spaced elevation markers--4000 feet, 3000 feet, 2000 feet, 1000 feet--seemed to be coming alarmingly close together. The needle was well buried most of the way--at the fastest it was pointing straight down, 6 o'clock--until after about 11-miles of this insanity the grade finally started to ease. Never ever ever again.

I suspect putting Ludwig on the Flats would be somewhat less hair-raising.

that sounds simply terrifying.


Id love to take a VW to the salt flats, but I always wanted to bring out a stock beetle and run in that 40hp vw class. doing it in a bus would be super fun - id totally do it in my green bus.

what if your metal battery tie down connects to a plywood battery tray? :p

[Bleyseng]

I went 95 mph in my Westy once on a long flat piece of eastern Wa road. I have driven the 914 to 120mph (speedo said 125) and that felt really fast on a track. 4 wheel drifts on that track at 75 mph felt scarier.
Got the Ghia to 85 mph a couple of times but I worry the top is going to open.
I'd love to put pedal to the metal to see what a car would do at the Flat as long as I had the right rated tires.

[Amskeptic]

I'd love to put pedal to the metal to see what a car would do at the Flat as long as I had the right rated tires.

That is where it starts and ends . . . the tires.

You read of that pretty little Ferrari that threw itself into small pieces at 200 mph on a lonely California-to-Nevada road because a tire got pissed? Tragic.
Colin

[Amskeptic]

I'd like to open up the Lexus, but it exceeds the 139.99 mph limit, so what "class" am I supposed to aim for?

Why, the 150 Club, of course.


But the fastest I ever drove--well, maybe "drove" isn't the right word; manned?--Ludwig was probably the dumbest thing I've ever done in a bus, or any car, or in my life, for that matter. We were coming into Death Valley from the West on CA 190, over Townes Pass (4954 ft). The only daylight left was a smear of pink/orange. The road was utterly empty. I knew that after a couple wiggles near the top, the road was pretty much a straight drop down nearly 4000 feet into Stovepipe Wells. So after the wiggles at the top I put it in neutral and just let it fall.

Holy shit. I realized as it sailed past 80 that I'd just done a stupid thing. By the time it got past 90 I was the most white-knuckling mofo you've ever seen. Can't really run the brakes lest they overheat
can't put it in 4th lest the clutch break into a million pieces upon release.
pleasedon'tlettherebearockintheroadpleasedon'tlettherebearockintheroad.
The needle was well buried most of the way--at the fastest it was pointing straight down, 6 o'clock--until after about 11-miles of this insanity the grade finally started to ease.

Who was "we", I almost can't bear to ask.

The most important thing people can bring to their stupid adventures is some information and common sense. I would have been devastated beyond belief if you had lost it there on CA 190 with the following information available to you:

a) these disk brake buses have seriously seriously wonderful brakes whose competence you may not even grasp. The factory has blessed them at full GVWR for three emergency stops in a row from top speed. Yes they will smoke, yes they will fade, yes you can get hauled down from 100 mph on a major downhill, you just have to use them!
next time, hit the damn brakes!

b) you are correct about shifting into 4th being a little tough but not on the clutch!! It is a slippy frictiony device! What you would have been in danger about is throwing the rear end into an engine compression braking slide. That could have been fatal. You *could have* easily revved the engine to stinky high rpms (or use your tachometer and know that 5,400 rpms gives you a glass smooth shift into 4th at 97 mph!) and gently let the clutch out after your shift into 4th with high rpms then slowly release accelerator for proper engine braking to go along with your fabulous disk brakes.

c) after having visited that road, the road surface is totally unsuitable for high speed, too many buckles and camber changes and occasional sand (deadly at high speed). Little rocks, even big ones, that accidentally show up, you have two choices 1 - if you can just barely nudge the car over and miss it, good, but 2 - hit the damn thing if it means not swerving and killing yourself and your beautiful precious family in a horrible slewing slide multiple rollover. Really. What is a damn rock going to do, destroy your undercarriage? Let it. Unlike many vehicles, our gas tanks are beautifully protected. Hit the rock square and keep control of your steering even as tires deflate and rims go sparky square wobbly.

(I did hit a RAILROAD TIE right the f#*@ in the middle of the road with the Road Warrior one night, I have never felt such a resounding bash to my poor car. No tires deflated. No rims bent. No suspension misaligned. I checked that car twice over in disbelief. Some splinters at the engine carrier. Drove back onto the road in disbelief)

So, all in all, I think the greatest danger you faced doing a little pell-mell descent into Stovepipe Wells wasn't that the car could not handle it . . . but that the driver had no Plan B or Plan C or Plan D.

[whc03grady]

Who was "we", I almost can't bear to ask.

This was 2006, before any kid(s). "We" was me and Melissa.

The most important thing people can bring to their stupid adventures is some information and common sense. I would have been devastated beyond belief if you had lost it there on CA 190 with the following information available to you:

a) these disk brake buses have seriously seriously wonderful brakes whose competence you may not even grasp. The factory has blessed them at full GVWR for three emergency stops in a row from top speed. Yes they will smoke, yes they will fade, yes you can get hauled down from 100 mph on a major downhill, you just have to use them!
next time, hit the damn brakes!

I did tap them, a firm 1, 2, 3 count but the grade would redeliver all the speed within a few buslengths. I thought about stomping them, but didn't for whatever reason.

b) you are correct about shifting into 4th being a little tough but not on the clutch!! It is a slippy frictiony device! What you would have been in danger about is throwing the rear end into an engine compression braking slide. That could have been fatal. You *could have* easily revved the engine to stinky high rpms (or use your tachometer and know that 5,400 rpms gives you a glass smooth shift into 4th at 97 mph!) and gently let the clutch out after your shift into 4th with high rpms then slowly release accelerator for proper engine braking to go along with your fabulous disk brakes.

Actually, my thought about revving it up and dumping it into 4th was that the deceleration would be so much and so abrupt as to put my face into the windshield, and bring the tail around.
Tachometer?

c) after having visited that road, the road surface is totally unsuitable for high speed, too many buckles and camber changes and occasional sand (deadly at high speed). Little rocks, even big ones, that accidentally show up, you have two choices 1 - if you can just barely nudge the car over and miss it, good, but 2 - hit the damn thing if it means not swerving and killing yourself and your beautiful precious family in a horrible slewing slide multiple rollover. Really. What is a damn rock going to do, destroy your undercarriage? Let it. Unlike many vehicles, our gas tanks are beautifully protected. Hit the rock square and keep control of your steering even as tires deflate and rims go sparky square wobbly.

Mostly I was afeared of any rocks I wouldn't see in time and would explode a tire. I wasn't confident in my ability to control the vehicle at that speed with one front tire dead. In retrospect, I should've been as in 2004 I lost the pass. front at speed (~60mph) on top of Cajon Pass (I-15 North of San Bernardino) in heavy, fast-moving traffic, and handled it just fine.

So, all in all, I think the greatest danger you faced doing a little pell-mell descent into Stovepipe Wells wasn't that the car could not handle it . . . but that the driver had no Plan B or Plan C or Plan D.

It was an astounding failure of common sense, a spur of the moment "I wonder what would happen if" thing. The driver had no Plan A, let alone Plan B etc. Don't worry--I recognized instantly that this was an instance of Astonishing Stupidity, never to be repeated.

Bonneville Salt Flats, that doesn't seem particularly dangerous (especially in comparison) but I wasn't sure, hence the OP.

[Bleyseng]

I'd love to put pedal to the metal to see what a car would do at the Flat as long as I had the right rated tires.

That is where it starts and ends . . . the tires.

You read of that pretty little Ferrari that threw itself into small pieces at 200 mph on a lonely California-to-Nevada road because a tire got pissed? Tragic.
Colin

No, but I have seen folks on track days blow a tire cuz it wasn't rated for the speed and cornering at speed and it overheated and blew up. Surprise.
On a bus the properly rated tires is important too due to it's weight and then going faster than it's rated too with that weight is a scary idea.