Restarting after 12 years in storage

[Amskeptic]

Got the last parts for fuel today. What *Is* customer service coming to? Also have my nice sub in of a 2003 M-B Sprinter fuel hose to sub for the NLA bottom filler hose. Beautiful fit.

I knew those Sprinters were good for something.
Colin

[webwalker]

IN 2010 a German Bus enthusiast showed the use of the Mercedes part number 9014760026 which is off of a Mercedes Sprinter and for him at least, fits identically to our NLA part, if not a bit better.

That said, I've had a terrible time trying to find Mercedes Commercial parts here in the US of A. Not that they can't be had. But the Mercedes folks don't seem to think their parts belong on a a different vehicle.

I finally found a Dodge Dealership in Texas who would do the part number conversion from MB to Dodge and tell me what I needed to order: Dodge part 5119668AA for a 2003 Dodge Sprinter. Got my part for $14 and it fits perfectly and is fuel rated.

On a different subject, I need to clean up, lubricate and otherwise make happy the throttle valve assembly. I inquired over that 'the site which shall not be named' and was referred to a bloke who rebuilds them. I've seen pictures. They're museum quality. And about six hundred C-Notes.

I need to get the bus on the road, not prepare it for Concours. I've used spray cleaner for the inside of the throttle body, but what would you all recommend for cleaning the entire throttle valve assembly?

M

[SlowLane]

I need to get the bus on the road, not prepare it for Concours. I've used spray cleaner for the inside of the throttle body, but what would you all recommend for cleaning the entire throttle valve assembly?

I immerse mine in a gallon of that nasty carb cleaner that you don't want to get on your skin. Be sure to take it apart far enough to remove the rubber shaft seal. They're NLA and will dissolve pretty readily in the nasty carb cleaner. Oh, yeah: also remove the idle speed ajusting screw and its o-ring.

But if you're happy with how the inside of the body looks, just run with that. It's only the inside that's important here. The engine doesn't give a hoot about how clean the outside is...

[webwalker]

Well, I've got the engine down to the longblock and I think I'm humped.

Not because its filthy. (It is.)
Not because it looks like the rear seal (fan end) is leaking.
Not because I'm amazed that this thing could run when it was parked. (I've test run it.)

The #3 cylinder has a timesert in it. No big deal. But I've just found the #1 bore has some buggered up threads. I'm going to hope I can get the head off without cracking a fin and then I'll beg everyone to look at the valves with me.

Here's the engine:

[webwalker]

The cold leakdown was yet more sick making:

Cylinder #3 35% leakdown (rings)
Cylinder #4 32% leakdown (rings)
Cylinder #2 60% leakdown (too much leak to determine whether rings were the problem.)
Cylinder #1 60% leakdown (too much leak to determine whether rings were the problem.)

After a careful lookover, the engine has NO signs of having been rebuilt. 167k original miles and it is apparently numbers matching.

So I can't even rely on a rebuild sometime in the recent (in terms of engine hours) past to help me along. I ain't got $3000 in my hip pocket for a new engine. Remember Muir's 'Muldoon' rebuild? What can I do to get it moving for 10000 miles while I start banking for this rebuild?

I started shopping the Usual Suspects for head replacement. I knew it would not be cheap. Here's what I found:
Gowesty AMC New, Unmodified $423 each
Bus Depot AMC New, Unmodified $524 each
German Supply AMC New, Unmodified $586 each
German Supply AMC + SS Valves + Ground Keepers $696 each
German Supply AMC + SS Valves + 3 Angle Grind + Ground Keepers $777 each
Bus-Boys AMC New, Unmodified $450 each
cip1 AMC New, Unmodified $550 each
Wolfgang International AMC New, Unmodified $429
GermanSupply AMC Upgraded $1597 ($799 each, sold in pairs)
Headflow Masters, AMC + keepers +seats +valves +guides: $825 each

As you can see, the cost slews wildly by almost as much as 40%! For the same new, unmodified product! When you get in to modifications to this head that's when I can see different companies being able to differentiate themselves. But seriously.... 40% based on vendor?

All helpful suggestions welcome.

M

[dtrumbo]

Can your existing heads be rebuilt? Adrian at Headflow Masters did mine for less than your least expensive option listed above. I won't quote an exact price as his may have changed. I suggest you call him back and see what he can do.

[webwalker]

dtrumbo, et al:

Either Adrian's prices have gone up or I ask the wrong questions. May I ask, what was the condition of the heads you sent him? What work did he do on them and how long did he estimate they were good for?

The list for my heads that my unstudied eye sees are:

valves, seats, guides
All of the exhaust studs are trashed (corrosion or rotated cleanly out of the head when the nut was turned)
At least two of the plug threads are stripped. One has been successfully timeserted, the other hasn't been addressed

I have no idea what that comes to, but it is certainly worth another stab. I keep hearing how the AMC casting is supposed to be superior, and I know Len at HAM won't touch the VW castings, even for a rebuild. I'm surprised Adrian does work on them.

If I could pull the work in under the lowest rate per head that I quoted, believe me...that would make a huge difference, because at the moment I am North of $2000 in parts for putting this engine back together, and that's after having compared prices like a miser.

Thanks for your input. The costs of dealing with this engine are taking a little extra to absorb, since I already have the cost of the vehicle reinvested in parts to bring the engine back to life, I am already committed to this project.

M

[SlowLane]

I I am North of $2000 in parts
...
The costs of dealing with this engine are taking a little extra to absorb, since I already have the cost of the vehicle reinvested in parts to bring the engine back to life, I am already committed to this project.

Welcome to the madness. It's extra maddening when you come to realize that $3000 is the low-end bargain engine.

When you start to look at a $12,000 turnkey Raby Camper Special as "not a bad deal", have a good friend nearby ready to kick you in the head.

Frankly, I was astounded that GoWesty had the lowest prices for your heads of any vendor. That just flies against expectations.

[dtrumbo]

My heads were about as ugly as you can imagine.

"Before"



"After"



I just pulled the invoice from Adrian. Here is the list of things he did described under the overall heading of "heads rebuilt".

(sic)
New chromoly exhaust studs
All new valve seats, valves, guides etc.
Glass cleaned and resurface
Three angle valve job
Flycut for no head gasket

He did not quote a "warranty" or otherwise any longevity promises, but I have no reason to believe they wouldn't last pretty much forever assuming I take care of them properly.

I almost just scanned the invoice and posted it, but I don't quite feel comfortable disclosing his pricing in case things have changed. I had the work done in March of 2011 and as mentioned, the price then, including shipping, was less than the GoWesty price. I too am blown away that GoWesty was the cheapest no matter if we're talking cylinder heads or cigarette lighters.

Oh, one more thing. When I spoke to Adrian, there was a slight language barrier so perhaps you might be on to something when you said you "asked the wrong question". What also supports this theory is the price you quoted above appears to be for new AMC heads rather than a rebuild of your existing VW heads.

[webwalker]

My heads were about as ugly as you can imagine.

I just pulled the invoice from Adrian. Here is the list of things he did described under the overall heading of "heads rebuilt".

(sic)
New chromoly exhaust studs
All new valve seats, valves, guides etc.
Glass cleaned and resurface
Three angle valve job
Flycut for no head gasket

He did not quote a "warranty" or otherwise any longevity promises, but I have no reason to believe they wouldn't last pretty much forever assuming I take care of them properly.

I almost just scanned the invoice and posted it, but I don't quite feel comfortable disclosing his pricing in case things have changed. I had the work done in March of 2011 and as mentioned, the price then, including shipping, was less than the GoWesty price. I too am blown away that GoWesty was the cheapest no matter if we're talking cylinder heads or cigarette lighters.

Oh, one more thing. When I spoke to Adrian, there was a slight language barrier so perhaps you might be on to something when you said you "asked the wrong question". What also supports this theory is the price you quoted above appears to be for new AMC heads rather than a rebuild of your existing VW heads.

I made an error when I quoted GoWesty: I did not see that this was for the AMC version of the wasser Vanagon head. My bad!

I'm not as concerned about a warranty proper, or even 'promises,' just whether you could expect a rebuild VW OEM head to keep you on the road as long as an AMC if the same components were used. Looks like your heads were about as gooped up as mine were when they came out. Believe it or not, my wife and I have weighed the relative merits of packing the heads as LUGGAGE when we go to San Diego in late June. Drive them up to Adrian, collect them again a week later and fly home with them. I'm sure the TSA would have some humorous xray pictures.

M

[Ryno]

I will echo what the other nice folks here have said. I had Adrian do a set of heads for me that worked out well on my old bus.

[webwalker]

Unless I am offered a reputable deal I cannot refuse, I'll probably being doing the same thing. I've had a few old hands chime in that the heads looks quite rebuildable, and if you're going to use original castings, Adrian is the guy to do it.

Some other questions as I prepare my work space and mumble my mantras before getting underway with this:

For seal & gasket kits, Elring or Reinz?
For cam, if you don't want any trouble with the EPA or your heads, what's the best compromise cam? What's the greatest number of miles you've ever put on an after market camshaft?

M

[72Hardtop]

Best compromise on an aftermarket cam would be a Web 73 camshaft. Compared to a stock cam it's miles ahead. The bus will run cooler and in return live a longer life due to less heat. Be sure and use Web lifters with their cam grinds.

[dtrumbo]

Believe it or not, my wife and I have weighed the relative merits of packing the heads as LUGGAGE when we go to San Diego in late June. Drive them up to Adrian, collect them again a week later and fly home with them. I'm sure the TSA would have some humorous xray pictures.

M

I wouldn't get too locked in to a time frame. Mine took longer than I expected (and perhaps was led to believe). I'd just go ahead and wrap them in copious quantities of bubble-wrap, put 'em in a box and ship 'em. That way your trip to San Diego won't have this project worming around in the back of your brain. As Miracle Max says "Don't rush me sonny. You rush a miracle man, you get rotten miracles."

[webwalker]

Yeah, I gathered that from some private remarks. I may still hand deliver them and accept postal return, since it is going to take some time to procure the rest of the engine internals as well as getting the teardown complete, hot tanked, etc. A realistic look at my schedule already pushes this out. But having heads in hand would be a fantastic excuse to see the shop. (I don't get out much.)

I am still looking over local options, but they're pretty thin, and do you want to have the master work the heads for the same or slightly higher price or have a local yokel do it just because he's 'local.'

I'm also looking over European Motorworks, who grinds their own cams from blanks as a reasonable alternative to Webcam. What's on the Webcam lifters to merit the same price as the cam itself? Unicorn blood? Dragon snot?

M