Restarting after 12 years in storage

[webwalker]

So I looked into European Motorworks; nice selection of Type4 stuff. Wish they provided as much cam info on their website as a custom grinder as Webcam does.

I'm looking at the range of cams available and I'm feeling quite at sea. If I were to make a list it would look like this:

Raby 9550 - (But you have to buy the rest of the engine to go around it. And I need to pass Fed emissions, though not California smog emissions.)
Webcam 73, 701i, stock - I don't see how a 73 or even a 701i is going to benefit me if I don't open the intakes up to 42mm, and I don't want to run my idle high for the privilege of more top end power. I want to optimize for the best out of the stock L-jet, driveability, and no hassles from the emissions man.

Scat? Be serious. I don't think I'll buy any wear part from them.

European Motorworks: They grind their own cams, and have a laundry list of Type4 grinds (more than a dozen by my count) for stock, HiPo, solid, hydraulic, race, etc. But I don't know a darned thing about their quality, reliability, etc. And 'chilled billet' is the most I get from their website for the cam blanks. Can anyone vouch for their quality? Has anyone run their cams for 50k plus miles and still been happy?

I know that one builds a 'whole engine' and the parts must be fit together not just on the basis of what can be jambed in the case, but what is compatible in terms of metallurgy, physics, rotational masses, thermodynamics and airflow. Please go easy on me as I lay out my intentions for scrutiny and get some advice from everyone.

At present:

• Stock Type4 GD 2L crankcase
• Stock crank, repolished journals
• AA 94mm (2L) Pistons and Cylinders
• OEM VW heads rebuilt (by Headflow, probably) with standard durability upgrades
• Stock rocker geometry
• All bearings are either Kolbenschmidt or Reinz
• Gasket & seals are Elring
• All new hoses, FI, vacuum and new custom formed ones from GeeBee racing for the Type4 (Decel, Breather, Sboot.)
• Stock 70amp Alternator (factory.)
• New Injectors
• Rebuilt throttle valve assembly
• 72-74 heat Exchangers

But that cam bothers me.

[Amskeptic]

So I looked into European Motorworks; nice selection of Type4 stuff. Wish they provided as much cam info on their website as a custom grinder as Webcam does.

I'm looking at the range of cams available and I'm feeling quite at sea. If I were to make a list it would look like this:

Raby 9550 - (But you have to buy the rest of the engine to go around it. And I need to pass Fed emissions, though not California smog emissions.)
Webcam 73, 701i, stock - I don't see how a 73 or even a 701i is going to benefit me if I don't open the intakes up to 42mm, and I don't want to run my idle high for the privilege of more top end power. I want to optimize for the best out of the stock L-jet, driveability, and no hassles from the emissions man.

Scat? Be serious. I don't think I'll buy any wear part from them.

European Motorworks: They grind their own cams, and have a laundry list of Type4 grinds (more than a dozen by my count) for stock, HiPo, solid, hydraulic, race, etc. But I don't know a darned thing about their quality, reliability, etc. And 'chilled billet' is the most I get from their website for the cam blanks. Can anyone vouch for their quality? Has anyone run their cams for 50k plus miles and still been happy?

I know that one builds a 'whole engine' and the parts must be fit together not just on the basis of what can be jambed in the case, but what is compatible in terms of metallurgy, physics, rotational masses, thermodynamics and airflow. Please go easy on me as I lay out my intentions for scrutiny and get some advice from everyone.

At present:

• Stock Type4 GD 2L crankcase
• Stock crank, repolished journals
• AA 94mm (2L) Pistons and Cylinders
• OEM VW heads rebuilt (by Headflow, probably) with standard durability upgrades
• Stock rocker geometry
• All bearings are either Kolbenschmidt or Reinz
• Gasket & seals are Elring
• All new hoses, FI, vacuum and new custom formed ones from GeeBee racing for the Type4 (Decel, Breather, Sboot.)
• Stock 70amp Alternator (factory.)
• New Injectors
• Rebuilt throttle valve assembly
• 72-74 heat Exchangers

But that cam bothers me.

The reason I am no good at offering you any information is because I am doubling down on driveability. I have been to the performance cams, driven them, tuned them, and therefore must ask you where you actually drive your bus.

Do you, in fact, drive your bus in the performance band? That means do you accelerate past 30 mph in 2nd gear? Do you drive past 55 mph in 3rd gear? Do you drive in the 80 mph range on the highway in your bus?

My stock buses with factory camshafts are beautiful at pulling away from stop lights and torquing up driveways just past idle rpm. The factory was good at this low end driveability, it was designed for the soccer moms with a car full of kids or the tradesman with a ton of trade junk that had to set off in city traffic. I **like** enough heat in the damn exhaust to clean the carbon. I like enough heat in the oil (220*) to boil out the water vapor.

I see "marketing" written all over the "need" to improve factory output. Frankly, half the laggardly buses I have driven are not putting out even the modest factory horsepower.

After having driven the 1978 VW bus I bought in 2008 at 34,900 miles, I am even more convinced that the factory recipe is the best all around package of low speed torque, good fuel economy, and actually decent acceleration, with the known balance of power and cooling that lets me drive like a maniac in any climate with the assurance that I will obtain the legendary longevity that no one seems to enjoy in the present. My current acceleration in 4th gear in the BobD is 50-60 in 7 seconds and 50-70 in 15 seconds. Head temps hang around 375-390* up to 410* on the hills. Let that be the factory performance benchmark against which all other performance engines can be judged.

What are your actual performance requirements?
Colin

[airkooledchris]

sure, but where do you get a *stock* cam? are the "stock profile" grinds that some places offer really dead on to stock? are they all, or just one or two specific ones who got the "stock profile" correct?

it would be useful to know where to acquire a factory camshaft (or one ground like it)

[webwalker]

The reason I am no good at offering you any information is because I am doubling down on driveability. I have been to the performance cams, driven them, tuned them, and therefore must ask you where you actually drive your bus.

Do you, in fact, drive your bus in the performance band? That means do you accelerate past 30 mph in 2nd gear? Do you drive past 55 mph in 3rd gear? Do you drive in the 80 mph range on the highway in your bus?
What are your actual performance requirements?
Colin

Colin,

Thanks for weighing in. Your practical voice is one of the ones I wanted to have at the table of conversation.

I've got really simple requirements: no drama. I can religiously perform any maintenance required (and have, and do) on a piece of equipment that I rely on. I am not (despite my comments about the variety of grinds available from EMW, webcam and others) at all interested in a heavy foot in a bus. Ridiculous. I drove my bone stock 71 cross country 3 times and never thought it lacked. Yes, I'm one of those dead bores who shifts at 10/25/45. I referenced these manufacturers because they're the only places who will cut a stock cam, though they may look at you oddly when you ask for it. The stock T4 Bus cam is Webcam-142, which is what I had intended to run. I decided to go with Webcam based on reputation, rather than have a stock cam milled by EMW for half the price.

So no drama is my goal. I'd like to do (but do not insist on) 65 on the freeway in Philadelphia/New Jersey but I don't mind being leisurely about getting to 65. I presently drive a 1.5L underpowered Tercel to and from work (about 2 hours round trip) through ugly traffic. No big yank. As I said earlier:

I want to optimize for the best out of the stock L-jet, driveability, and no hassles from the emissions man.

I've also revised my build plans very slightly:

• Stock Type4 GD 2L crankcase
• Stock crank, repolished journals, rebuilt stock rods
• Webcam 142 & Webcam Lifters
• AA 94mm P&Cs
• OEM VW heads rebuilt by Headflow with standard durability upgrades
• Stock rocker geometry
• All bearings gaskets & seals either Kolbenschmidt or Reinz
• All new hoses, FI, vacuum and GeeBee Decel, Breather & Sboot
• Stock 70amp Alternator (factory)
• New Injectors
• Rebuilt throttle valve assembly
• 72-74 heat Exchangers
• Stock German 411 Ernst exhaust w/EGR

Other than having the whole rotating mass balanced, is there any other work you would suggest for reliability and longevity? Or have I completely missed the mark with my plans enumerated above?

Thanks again for your input. The people on this site and others have been incredibly helpful in assisting me to avoid the most obvious pitfalls.

Marshall

[webwalker]

sure, but where do you get a *stock* cam? are the "stock profile" grinds that some places offer really dead on to stock? are they all, or just one or two specific ones who got the "stock profile" correct?

it would be useful to know where to acquire a factory camshaft (or one ground like it)

It is my understanding that if you're getting a stock grind, you'd better be agreed on the use of the word 'stock.' The same engine did not always have the same cam; it varied by use and load and (I think) fuel injection type, e.g. D-Jet on Type4 got a different cam than L-Jet on Type4, but don't quote me.

Webcam or EMW will regrind your 'factory cam' to the factory specs for your vehicle if you wish, since the stock profile is known. But for another $50, you get the same stock grind applied to a new German chilled billet blank with modern metallurgy, plus nitriding and metallurgical compatibility with their lifters.

There are a number of places that will add metal to your existing camshaft and then regrind it back to a stock profile. I just thought that it was silly not to make use of the almost forty years of improvements in metallurgy if my intent was a cam that was going to wear and run well 100k miles from now. 100k miles is a L-O-N-G amortization schedule for $50.

M

[webwalker]

Well, oops.

I got the case apart. The flywheel end was pretty much gummed together at the seam and the cam plug was a friction fit glueball.

I did not pry on the case halves, even after they were 1/8" apart and still not separating. Rubber Mallet only.
Pull...thump.thump.thump...
Pull...thump.thump.thump...
Pull...thump.thump.thump

Snap.

Dammit.



All of the bearing surfaces look sane, and the crank floated nicely in the bearings.







My intention is to pull the five troublemaking oil gallery plugs out, that way the galleries get partially washed by the parts washer when it goes into the machine shop. Also have the shop weld up that busted off flange. (I've even heard of some JB Welding it, though I don't think I'll go that route.)

Comments and suggestions before this goes in for its bath and measurements? I'm probably going to bring the case halves with me to Litchfield just to have those with a more studied eye go over it with me.

M

[72Hardtop]

Well, oops.

I got the case apart. The flywheel end was pretty much gummed together at the seam and the cam plug was a friction fit glueball.

I did not pry on the case halves, even after they were 1/8" apart and still not separating. Rubber Mallet only.
Pull...thump.thump.thump...
Pull...thump.thump.thump...
Pull...thump.thump.thump

Snap.

Dammit.



All of the bearing surfaces look sane, and the crank floated nicely in the bearings.







My intention is to pull the five troublemaking oil gallery plugs out, that way the galleries get partially washed by the parts washer when it goes into the machine shop. Also have the shop weld up that busted off flange. (I've even heard of some JB Welding it, though I don't think I'll go that route.)

Comments and suggestions before this goes in for its bath and measurements? I'm probably going to bring the case halves with me to Litchfield just to have those with a more studied eye go over it with me.

M

That cam is done. Go with a Web cam/lifters you won't regret it. There is a reason Jake has them grind his cams. Are the gallery plugs currently tapped and threaded?

[webwalker]

Well, all of my engine problems are now academic.

The original GD crankcase is shot to hell. #2 bearing saddle has been pounded to slag and has a razor edge on it from the clobbering that you could shave with. The final straw was when I discovered that the drain plug for the sump had been helicoiled. Snap gage measurements of the bores show a case beaten to slag that would require some considerable machine work to put right. At this point, the machine work (if I could find a competent Type 4 machinist near me) would cost me more than I've already sunk into the vehicle in parts.

In lieu of the immense amount of trouble that I've had trying to be a good citizen and tear down only what I must, to leave other items intact to keep costs down and get the vehicle back on the road faster (before the project loses steam) I have been forced along a different route. Rebuild it myself. All of it.

To wit, I have purchased many NOS and OEM parts as well as a VW Factory Rebuilt Type 4 GE case to put them in, which was being held by someone very reputable in the community for a project that did not come to pass. The bores are already 100% and the case has already had the oil galleries drilled and is only waiting for a final cleaning before installing the taps and starting the internals mock-up.

That doesn't mean that I won't be going through all of the blueprinting exercises all over again with this new crankcase. But I'll be starting with many components which have been collected by knowledgeable hobbyists against the day that they needed to build a Type4, with NOS or OEM components.

So I find myself at a crossroads of hilarity: Having attempted to do as little as possible to get the numbers matching GD case running, I find myself nine months later having to replace everything but the alternator and some brackets. I also see that I am out of money, but need to push through a few more purchases to get the bottom end buttoned up before the snow comes. (Yes I plan that far in advance, because that's how screwed up my life is.)

So all of my focus presently is on acquiring the last of the engine internals I require to button up. Much more info coming as I try to push the throttle forward and beat the weather.

Here's to a productive late summer and fall!

Marshall

[Amskeptic]

So I find myself at a crossroads of hilarity: I am out of money,
Marshall

It IS hilarious.
Colin
(have fun, do it right, take your time, ask questions, take pictures, keep us updated)

[Jivermo]

What ever happened here?

[energyturtle]

I am going to assume the bus is sitting, no engine. Cost became a factor and the disassembled engine is sitting in the interior like so many others. I hope I am wrong. People are either in it for the long haul or destined to become a sad statistic we all know to well. "ran when parked".
Scottie

[Amskeptic]

I am going to assume the bus is sitting, no engine. Cost became a factor and the disassembled engine is sitting in the interior like so many others. I hope I am wrong. People are either in it for the long haul or destined to become a sad statistic we all know to well. "ran when parked".
Scottie

Let's ask . . . PM/email buttons are provided here at little additional cost . . .
Colin

[energyturtle]

Good point.
Scottie

[greg in ga]

did anyone ever hear how this turned out? I'm at the start of the engine building process and was wondering how his cam/heads/etc worked together.

[Jivermo]

I pm'd the guy.