twice now

Beetle, Karmann Ghia, Thing.

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ruckman101
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twice now

Post by ruckman101 » Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:35 pm

Twice, Cheryle has driven Gretchen erranding about town then heading to the mountain, 30, 40 miles of highway, stopped for gas and headed out and less than a mile down the road Gretchen sputters to a stand-still, refusing to start or run.

First time some kind soul gave her a hand, blaming the fuel filter, put a new one in before the fuel pump, and used some kind of clear hosing from the pump to the carb. It got her down the road and up the mountain to home. No problems for a week. Driven as a primary auto.

Ok. New fuel filter and I check the oh so cute one on the side of the fuel pump and it's clean. Second time, same scenario, but no kind soul to help. She futzes and eventually calls AAA because Gretchen just won't start.

Frustrating because Gretchen was humming along easy down the highway running real nice prior to both incidents.

AAA arrives (with a full gas can, "I told you I had just filled up!"), dude holds the throttle arm open at the carb and Gretchen fires right up and off she goes. Probably 90 minutes since it quit. It's been another week and no problems.

I drove up from Portland to the mountain today and it was a joy. We didn't stop for gas.

So I figure there's the screen in the tank in front of the line out, and crawled around and found the line, gave it a wrench and it looks pretty rusted, so hit it with WD-40 and will tackle it again tomorrow. Crud and debris stirred up at the pump being the culprit.

New territory for me. I suspect Gretchen sat quite a bit in the elements with the PO, and am worried about rust, so I may be doing a tank restore.

New valve adjust screws, oil change the other tasks slated. Rubber inspection. Some pieces seem newer. Oh, left it in Portland, but the engine deck-lid springy latchy post thingy fell off. Is that just another wide washer nut to the lid, length adjusted with the second nut?

Getting to know Gretchen.

On another note, the poor crushed Suzuki, with recently sprung driver's door that would no longer close, was given the treatment and abuse so now the door does close, reluctantly, nomimally, with resistance.

Just checking in I guess. Hi folks. And it was just a great drive up, Gretchen, rather than ripping into things, just kind of gently eases right on up to cruising speeds with little effort. And the twisty bits, slipping through the curves.

Nice to have a ghia back in my life. I've always missed my '62.



neal
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Post by vdubyah73 » Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:27 am

If the screen doesn't fix it make sure the fuel tank vents are venting. Next time it happens, open the gas cap as fast as you can. If you hear any kind of air rushing sounds, there it is.

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Post by vwlover77 » Tue Mar 11, 2008 5:00 am

I'm betting on gunk in the tank, unfortunately....
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Post by spiffy » Tue Mar 11, 2008 11:38 am

Check the float as well.
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Post by steve74baywin » Tue Mar 11, 2008 11:45 am

Is it possible that the heat off the engine from sitting is somehow messing up the carbs?

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ruckman101
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Post by ruckman101 » Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:00 pm

Well the engine seems to be running cool. Cooler than the bus after powering up the hill to the mountaintop home. Not a hint of discomforting heat on the dipstick when I grab it.

So, got brave and cursed and cussed the fuel line out of the tank (why would the brake line be in the way!), and fished out the little "sock" filter only to find it busted up at the base. Chunks of rusty looking bits big enough to clog the fuel line inside the sock filter.

Image

So at a minimum, a new filter. Maybe best to pull the tank and give it the treatment. The nut itself was 1/8 inch thick with rusty sludge. Should I just try flushing some gas through the tank while still in the car?

Image

Shouldn't there be a lip or something on the filter, that fits between the tank and the nut?



Hey, photobucket works, I never have any luck trying to post photos from photodump.

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Post by Bookwus » Tue Mar 11, 2008 8:30 pm

Hiya Neal,

I'm with Don on this one.

If you flush out the tank a bit right now you are likely to get crud out the bottom. And while that is a good thing, there will still be more crud in the tank. And sooner or later it will do its dirty work.

Your filter sock looks as if it has been torn. Consequently it's allowing some crud into the line.

And.......you might also want to check the filter screen in your pump. It's likely to be dirty also.
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Post by tristessa » Tue Mar 11, 2008 11:27 pm

Thankfully the gas tank isn't a Ghia-specific part, so you can get a new one (if needed) fairly inexpensively.

Methinks this problem never came up for Eric because he never put many miles on that car over the year. Sure, he drove it down from Seattle, but after that it was mostly around town...
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ruckman101
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Post by ruckman101 » Wed Mar 12, 2008 3:44 pm

Yeppers, a partial tank sitting is prone to condensation, and the rust that goes with it.

Well, new is $110 at Halsey's, used $45 at Always. KGPR listed new ones for $93 or so, with a warning in the description that the filler tube may not be in line, so tweaking at my own risk might be in order (bending it).

For sheer expediency, I'm leaning to the used tank, treating the current and keeping for a spare. I can't remember if the baja had a tank, but it would be wrong, anyway. '64 vs '70. Although I kind of like lifting the front lid to fill.


neal
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Post by Amskeptic » Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:00 pm

ruckman101 wrote:Yeppers, a partial tank sitting is prone to condensation, and the rust that goes with it.

Well, new is $110 at Halsey's, used $45 at Always. KGPR listed new ones for $93 or so, with a warning in the description that the filler tube may not be in line, so tweaking at my own risk might be in order (bending it).

For sheer expediency, I'm leaning to the used tank, treating the current and keeping for a spare. I can't remember if the baja had a tank, but it would be wrong, anyway. '64 vs '70. Although I kind of like lifting the front lid to fill.


neal
Keeping a full tank at all times is your very best insurance.

Based on the symptoms you have described, I am leaning towards a needle valve sticking closed intermittantly. The next time Gretchen waits to strand Cheryle, have Cheryle tap the top of the craburetor with any piece of plastic like the handle of a screwdriver, just three little rap-rap-raps and go try to start the car. Some new/rebuilt carbs use squishy neoprene on the needle, it can wedge in the conical socket. OEM used beautifully machined brass on beautifully machined brass with a pressure limiter in the way of a spring-loaded ball bearing where the float tab hits it. . . .
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Post by tristessa » Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:01 pm

ruckman101 wrote:I can't remember if the baja had a tank, but it would be wrong, anyway. '64 vs '70. Although I kind of like lifting the front lid to fill.
Baja does have a tank but it's one of the high-capacity ones and might not fit under the trunk lid of a Ghia.
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ruckman101
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Post by ruckman101 » Thu Mar 13, 2008 3:20 pm

Alright, gots a couple new screens, metal instead of nylon. And a used original tank. Maybe if I don't need it I call sell it 10, 15 years from now and retire comfortably.

Anyone have any experience with interior coatings? Teflon has been mentioned. POR 15 makes a product for the task others seem to have successfully used.

Bentley suggests two solutions for restoring tanks. A derusting phosphate agent (prefered) or an aqueous solution of hydrocloric acid (industrial muriatic acid), followed by a rinse with a "soluble oil mixture (one part machine coolant to 20 parts water)."

What the heck is machine coolant?

Bentley also suggests completely filling the tank with the first solution, and that the solution can be stored and used 10 or 15 times. For parts cleaning?


neal
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Post by tristessa » Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:03 pm

ruckman101 wrote:A derusting phosphate agent (prefered) or an aqueous solution of hydrocloric acid (industrial muriatic acid), followed by a rinse with a "soluble oil mixture (one part machine coolant to 20 parts water)."

What the heck is machine coolant?
Derusting phosphate agent is commonly sold as Naval Jelly, though it's .. well, jelly. Not something that you could easily fill a gas tank with, though it might be possible to dilute it with water.

Muriatic acid is a hardware-store item, soluble oil might be harder to find -- we carried it at the parts store where I worked, but that was years ago and miles away. Possibly a Mercedes dealership?
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Post by Bookwus » Thu Mar 13, 2008 7:47 pm

Hiya Neal,

The Restomotive (POR 15) system is top notch.

I have NOT done a VW tank with this system but I have done a motorcycle tank. I was very impressed. The only caveat I could offer up would be that one has to be careful to follow the instructions to the letter.

For more (including photos) on treating a VW tank, hit Ratwell's site.
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Post by vdubyah73 » Fri Mar 14, 2008 6:35 am

Machine coolant. When you watch some of the semi educational TV on The History Channel or The Learning Channel etc.. Sometimes you will see footage of a machine shop making parts on lathes, milling machines, boring machines and grinders. Machine coolant is the stuff that comes out of the hose that sprays on the piece being machined. Sometimes the coolant will have the color and consistency of oil, thats not it. The machine coolant will usually be an odd color, look kinda milky translucent and flow like water. It is some kind of water soluble oil. It lubricates, but mostly it keeps the metal from heating up and changing its properties during machining and also prevents rust from forming while the parts are between machine operations. In a big shop/factory, where parts are ordered in bulk, and need many operations on different machines to be completed, it can take a month or more to make its way through the process.

I know this because of where I once worked, we made pakaging and bottling machines. In the early 80's, if you brushed your teeth with Colgate, ate Kellogs cereal, washed you bowl with Palmolive dish detergent and then had a snort of Jack Daniels, every one of those products went through a machine that I helped build. These are the machines you see on TV whizzing and whirling as the fill things up and cap them. At the beginning of the line there would be a hopper full of product, a hopper full of containers, a hopper full of caps,( or boxes and rolls of plastic ) by the time you got to the end of the machine the product would be filled, sealed, boxed, stacked on a pallet and shrink wrapped , ready for shipping all done by machine, with human supervision. I wasn't a machinist I was inventory and production control, I made sure that the guys building the machine had the parts when they needed them.



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